114: Round Table 4: Dr. Jay Wiles & Biohacker Babes (Lauren Sambataro & Renee Belz): All Things Data!: Unveiling Best Data-Driven Practices, & Breakthroughs for Optimal Health (& Sleep!)

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie McGlocklin and I own a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability and behavioral change. Each week, I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper.

Let's jump into your dose of practical sleep training.

Welcome to the sleep is a skill podcast Today's episode is very different than any episode we've done so far, and I really hope you enjoy this format. It is a roundtable format, so you're going to hear a lot more voices than you usually do on our episodes. Certainly you know that sleep is a skill, is looking at that intersection of technology, accountability, and behavioral change.

So we're going to go a little bit deeper on all things metrics and from some of these specific subject matter experts in various areas that I think you're going to really enjoy. Enjoy. Now, a little bit of background on each guest, Dr. Jay Wiles, he is a clinical health psychologist, HRV subject matter expert, co founder, and chief scientific officer at HANU Health.

And just a side note, I have been beta testing their new product through HANU Health, which helps you look at your HRV and modulate your HRV throughout the course of the day. Super cool tech, and I think you're going to really enjoy that once more people have this in their hands. It's really, really cool.

But Dr. J is currently working as the health behavior coordinator at the WJB DORN VA Medical Center in Columbia, South Carolina, and the Greenville Outpatient VA Clinic. He has specialized training in health behavior coaching, health assessment, nutritional interventions for mental and physical health, motivational interviewing, applied psychophysiology, and consultation.

Dr. Wiles works as a consultant for companies, organizations, practitioners, and individual patients on nutritional psychology, health behavior change, applied psychophysiology, and health promotion disease prevention via complementary and integrative practices. He's also board certified in tai chi for rehabilitation.

And then some dear friends of mine, the biohacker babes that includes Lauren Sambataro and Renee Belz. Lauren and Renee grew up in a health driven family that prioritized the fundamentals of wellness and self care. Their father, Gene Sambatero, the original biohacker and pioneer of holistic dentistry and quick side note, he has been on the podcast.

Definitely recommend checking out that podcast where we go deeper into sleep apnea and certain things available that you can use to help support your sleep apnea or to get it diagnosed. Taught them the importance of individualization experimentation from a very young age. Renee, a certified nutritional consultant and holistic lifestyle coach with a master's degree in nutrition and Lauren, a Broadway performer, corrective exercise specialist and functional health coach.

Feel a strong passion and drive to not only share each of their journeys towards wellness, but their strategy and motivation to discover their own bodies through the world of biohacking. Their podcast, The Biohacker Babes, I had the opportunity to actually be on one of their episodes and highly suggest checking out their awesome podcast, aims to create insight into the body's natural healing abilities, strengthen your intuition, and empower you with techniques and modalities to optimize.

Your health and wellness, and I am also participating in this roundtable, and I think you know a little bit about my background as the creator of Sleep is a Skill, the company that is on a mission to help transform the conversation around sleep on the planet. All right, without further ado, let's jump into the podcast.

I think you're going to really enjoy some of the conversations that we get into, and we're going to do some more roundtables in the future. So if you have any questions that you would like to have answered from myself, from Dr. J, HRV expert and creator of HANU Health, as well as Biohacker Babes and their immense knowledge in the area of health and wellness.

Absolutely, send those on over to us. You can go to sleepisaskill. com and in the lower right hand corner, we have a little sleep bot, we like to call it, and you can submit any of those questions there. So I get a lot of questions around sleep supplements, and I'm very hesitant to just throw out a whole laundry list of possibilities.

One, I don't think it's the most responsible thing to do. I really do believe in testing to see what types of supplements make sense for you. And two, because I really, truly believe that most of the things that you can do to improve your sleep are behavioral, psychological, environmental, and nature, and often don't cost a dime.

However, there is one supplement that I personally take every day and that I do feel quite comfortable with suggesting for most individuals to experiment with. Because of a couple of reasons, it's high safety profile and high rates of deficiencies in our modern society. Some put the numbers as somewhere around 80% of the population being deficient in this one area, and that is magnesium.

So magnesium has been called the calming mineral and some report that magnesium can increase GABA, which encourages relaxation on a cellular level, which is critical for sleep. Magnesium also plays a key role in regulating our body's stress response system. Those with magnesium deficiency usually have higher anxiety and stress levels, which negatively impact sleep as well.

Now, before you go out and buy a magnesium supplement, it's important to understand that most magnesium products out there are either synthetic or They only have one to two forms of magnesium when in reality your body needs all seven forms of this essential sleep mineral. So that's why I recommend a product from my friends over at BioOptimizers.

They have created something called the Magnesium Breakthrough. And taking this magnesium before bed helps you relax and wake up refreshed wearables.

I will share anecdotally that many clients have reported improvements in their deep sleep trend numbers. Again, I don't want you going nuts on the sleep stage classification numbers on your wearables, but I do want to let you know about that because I know that many of you do reach out on questions of how to improve your deep sleep.

So I also love that BioOptimizers offers free shipping on select orders, and they offer a 365 day money back guarantee on all their products. Plus, they have a customer satisfaction rating of 99. 3%, very impressive. And you can get 10% off Magnesium Breakthrough, again, this is the same magnesium that I use every single night.

And finally, you can get 10% off Magnesium Breakthrough, again, that's the magnesium supplement that I use every single night, by going to www. mag. com. M A G, so magbreakthrough. com forward slash sleep is a skill. And be sure to use the code sleep is a skill for 10% off. Welcome to round table number, what number are we on?

I don't even know. Four! I think it's Four! Fantastic! Well, I am very excited to get to dive in and talk about, so the, the thing I'm thinking about, so in case you're wondering, this is Mollie Eastman, uh, from Sleep is a Skill, and we are going to be diving in with our favorite people, Dr. J. Wiles, creator of HANU Health, HRV expert, biohacker babes, we got Lauren, we got Renee, they're rock stars.

Actually, we just recorded on an aside over on the Sleep is a Skill podcast, which is dropping very soon all of their sleep tips, which were fantastic. That's a nice shameless plug that you threw in there. I had to throw that in there. Thanks, Mollie. They brought the goods. Um, but today I'm really, really excited because we are going to be diving into one of my favorite topics, Personally, and I have a sense that it is a favorite amongst all of us, which is the topic of data, biohacking data, but really exploring the pluses, the minuses, the best practices, favorite wearables, you know, questions, call it your concerns, the whole world of it.

So I'm thinking to kick things off, I wanted to discuss the role of data in the health and wellness journey. How has biohacking data transformed the way that we're approaching our own health and wellness? And what can the listener learn from this? You know, certain call outs, what are we day in, day out?

utilizing or any new exciting insights or breakthroughs in the world of data. So this is a big topic and we're going to get more granular. But just to begin, start with what we're all using. So to discover what we all might be able to learn from this. Uh, anyone want to jump, you know, in and share for themselves any call outs?

There's wearable that's necessary for us to talk about.

I mean, I have to lead with that. I feel like that the board would boot me out of my own company if I didn't lead with that and shun everything else. No, no. If anybody actually follows or listens to what I say, I do not shun any type of wearable. I love the idea of integrating everything, even though, uh, you know, I should be the Fox Guardian in house.

Because I own my own wearable company, but yeah, you know, it's, it's an interesting one because I, I think a lot of people, when they think about what I do and kind of my background, they think that I'm a super just like data centric nerd and I, and I am, however, I kind of roller coaster on it. I think sometimes I get burnout with data and I'll, I'm sure we can all speak to that kind of with our, within our own experience.

But it kind of, it comes in waves for me. It's almost like when I'm really into data, I'm like really into data. And then when I want to kind of take a step back, it's not like I ever remove data as a source of information from what kind of guides my health behavior choices. I just kind of minimize it.

It's kind of like social media use for me, right? Sometimes I'm like, Oh, I'm kind of engaging in too much social media use. I need to back it down and dial it down. But I never just kind of like go away from it. Completely. So I know that was very kind of nebulous and maybe somewhat esoteric because I'm not really saying much, but I'm in one of those phases right now where data is actually like high driving a lot of what I do, especially in terms of like, uh, exercise and fitness.

I've become really attuned. to increasing markers related to fitness for longevity, um, mostly VO2 max. And I have to thank Dr. Peter Atiyah for that. He kind of just sent me down the rabbit hole of VO2 max research and kind of measuring it both quantitatively from wearable devices, but actually going in and doing a VO2 max test, which if anybody's ever done, have any of y'all done a VO2 max test?

Yes, very long time ago. Do you remember how bad it is? It's awful. It is excruciating. If anybody's ever done, it's comparable to, if anybody's ever done a stress test with an EKG, and they put you on a treadmill, they put you on a bike, and they pretty much are just like, we're going to exhaust you as much as you can.

So for like a stress test, The idea is to look at any changes in the electrical output of the heart that could be indicative of arrhythmias VO2max is really looking at your maximum oxygen consumption during exercise. So basically, how much oxygen can you deliver to muscular tissue in an effort to perform?

And we know that as VO2max goes up, we see longevity. Health outcomes also go up as well. So for me, I've been using a lot of data from wearable devices. Uh, the, the ones that I use predominantly are like Apple Watch. So I recently got an Apple Watch. And the reason we did is because Hanu is working on building a lot with Apple Watch.

Hint, hint, it's coming. And then I also use Garmin, um, so like the Garmin Phoenix, that's kind of like been my go to forever, and I'll look at their VO2 max estimation there, which is actually quite accurate. They found that the VO2 max estimation that you get there is generally within 5% of the actual test.

And for me, I'll take that any day. I'll trust in that. So that I don't have to do the VO2 max test again, because it's awful. And that was actually where mine was. It was around 5%. My actual VO2 max was, excuse me, a little bit higher than what my Apple Watch said. But that is the main source of data that I'm using right now for exercise.

I'm really working on pumping those numbers up, simply from a longevity and health span perspective, if anything else. And honestly, like it has become like a rabbit hole of Gamification. Like I'm just using it as gamification. I use a lot of other data, but I don't want to like overrun the conversation with my interest in VO2 max right now, but it's a fascinating biomarker for many things regarding longevity and also mental health.

We know that as VO2 max goes up, there is a reduction. Generally, correlational data, reduction in anxiety experience and also reduction in depression. So really good for emotional well being. I'm so glad you called that out, too, because actually you're bringing up a topic that's of interest for me. I had done the test a while back.

I'm putting in the chat. I don't know how you pronounce the name of this company. It's P N O E, and it's a remote. No. Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Pnoe? I feel bad for the company because I'm not quite sure how you pronounce it. Wonderful company. They would send it to you remotely. But the mistake I made was I did it with a rower.

And I was doing it with a row, just the way I was, I should have done a treadmill. I should have known better. Um, it was just too finicky. And so I actually really want to do this again. So you're inspiring me. Are you discussing, maybe I missed it in what you shared, but is there kind of like the top down things that you're doing to address this?

Is it any big call outs there? Yeah, so, so in an effort to increase maximum oxygen consumption, the biggest way to do it is to train at your VO2 max level, so they're kind of not, this can send us down a rabbit trail, but I'll try to keep it as concise as possible. So there are kind of two mechanisms for really enhancing VO2 max from a longevity perspective.

The first one would be is exercising in more of a low heart rate or what we'd refer to as zone two, which is really going to be more for mitochondrial biogenesis. So the creation of new mitochondria, better ATP output, and just greater for endurance. Now that's That's that's a lower heart rate zone. Now, then up in the upper echelon of heart rate zones, what we might refer to as zone five, this is like getting pretty close 90 to 95% of maximum overall heart rate.

So for many people, they can just subtract. It's kind of a it's not the greatest way to do it, but it's the simplest way to do it. It's just from 220 subtract your age and that'll give you your maximum heart rate. And then 90 to 95% of that heart rate is generally where we see zone five training. Now, in order to increase VO2 max, I've been doing a fair amount of Zone 2, which I've always done, but I used to intermix a lot more of like high intensity interval training, and for me, that would be like a 30 seconds to 60 seconds like max effort, but really generally around 30 seconds max effort.

I'm talking about my max heart rate's 186, like I'm going like 180, 182, like really generating a lot of power, a lot of just overall stamina. However, We find that the research isn't as clear on how that improves VO2max, as does like what we call tempo training or tempo runs, which is basically doing intervals and what Peter Attia describes kind of in his new book, Outlive, which people should absolutely read if they haven't, I mean, it's just a wonderful collection of like every podcast he's ever done into like a super long, but very long Not so technical book like his podcasts are super technical, but his book is actually a lot less technical, which I think most people will enjoy because it doesn't kind of go into too, too much of the deep science and physiology, but he does four minute intervals on and four minute intervals off at what's called your VO two max, which is.

Basically kind of like running and pressing as hard as you can, but sustaining it for four minutes. And then the four minutes after that interval is doing more like just like a really light jog or even just a walk, like almost doing nothing compared to what you were doing. And then after four minutes rest, jump back into four minute interval, running as fast as you can to sustain pace at your VO two max.

So for me, for instance, this is just again, the numbers that I'm going to throw out there, my zone to run is generally like a nine 30 mile or so. So like nine minutes to nine minutes, 30 miles will keep my heart rate around 140. When I'm running at my VO two max, that's probably going to be like a six 45 miles, seven minute mile for four minutes.

And it's tough. I mean, it's just there's no way to put it. It's really difficult But i've seen that over the course of the last six weeks I have increased my vo2 max by 15 Which in six weeks is pretty and i'm very very happy with that 15 increase is good because it's taken me from Where I was happy with like I was okay.

Well, I'll say I was okay with the number to now putting me pretty close to the bracket that I want to be in, but I've got a long ways to go because my goal is to increase VO two max to the point of the generation behind or should say the decade behind me, their elite level is where I want to be. So not the elite level for you, my age group, like the 35 to 45.

Year olds, I want to be in like the 25 to 35 year old elite level. So anyway, rabbit hole, but I think it's, I mean, I just still think it's one of the best metrics that we have for longevity in terms of exercise output. And, uh, it's just, it's hard work. Like there's, there's no doubt about it. Like if you want to increase your view to max, you can, I think everybody can do it.

And it's a great data point to follow with your wearable technology, but it's not, uh, it's not a comfortable thing to do. That's for sure. That's yeah, it's just a stress test over and over again and the clients that I see that track it and I'm not personally tracking, but I'm watching my clients track it and try to move the needle and the ones that are having the greatest success are leading into both of those extremes like a healthy balance of the zone two and the higher intensity work.

With adequate recovery in between and I never heard the four minutes on four minutes off what I've read about VO two is that recovery interval is so much shorter than you want it to be because you have to live in that uncomfortable range. So if you're going all out, like, say you're running uphill on a treadmill, heading that VO two max, your recovery time is going to be.

Basically a quarter of what you want it to be. So you're not waiting for the heart rate to fully recover. You're going right back in. So it does feel extremely intense. And I did a version of this on the Carol bike yesterday, where you do 30 sprints in a, I think it's like a 10 minute period. You only have eight seconds to recover in between.

So it's not even recovery. The idea is that you're recovering completely on the back end. But the takeaway here is that it does suck, but we do hard things because of the, the benefits on the back end. Exactly. Exactly. And for me, it's. Mentally, instead of pushing against it, this is kind of getting into the psychology of this type of training, instead of just pushing against it, because every fiber of your being when you're doing this type of workout is just going to say, like, your brain is going to say, stop, stop, stop, you're dying, you're dying, like, you can't do this anymore, or like, you actually will pass out and die.

Your brain's telling you all this nonsense. And so I have found that, like, yeah. I just get into this place of like full on like acceptance of like, this is how it is. Like I've got two more intervals left. It's going to take me another 15 minutes and it all will be over with. And it still sucks. Like, I'm not going to lie.

It still sucks. But I think like, instead of like pushing back against it cognitively and just like wanting it to be over instead, just kind of thinking like, yeah, this is what it is. I'm going to accept it. And this is good for me. Like this will help me to and I link it with my values, right? So like for me when I'm 90 years old, I want to be playing down on the ground with my grandkids and wrestling with them and then get up and go do a hike with them and all of these things that most 90 year olds aren't doing like I'm training for that.

And again, I'm starting to sound just like I'm repeating everything Peter Tia says, but he's very convincing.

Speaking of Peter Ortega, have you all seen Limitless? Yeah. I know Lauren has. I haven't actually seen it. I know. I'm so behind. It's so funny. You have to watch it. But I think one of the episodes... Disney price. This is not a Disney ad. Not sponsored by Disney. Um, but anyways, Peter Ruttia is on there and I think one of the episodes they do a lot about VO2 Max when he's training for, I think the rope climb possibly.

I think that's right. Yeah. Anyways, really, really good. I thought it was an entertaining show. So good. Yeah, no, I feel like it's very Disney. Yes, very. It's not very Hollywood. I'm like, how to motivate people, take the God of Hollywood and make him do impossible things. And then you too can believe that you can do hard things.

They should have done it with Mickey. I mean, just like had Chris Hemsworth dressed as Mickey Mouse. Right, exactly. It would have been more convincing. More approachable. Yeah, for sure. Well, okay, so I love this VO2max. I wasn't expecting that, um, direction, which I think is so important. Would we imagine for all of us, our experience that, um, say if we were to endeavor into VO2max, certainly on my podcast, we haven't really discussed that much at all.

So I appreciate this. And would we imagine that we might be able to see changes in our wearable data as a result of training for that? Have we seen that with clients or ourselves? Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't mean to dominate the conversation here. Um, so every, all the listeners would be like, Jay, shut up.

He keeps talking. At least I feel like I can talk. You know your stuff, man. Yeah, you're excited. I love the excitement. I, I hope I don't forget it all. I feel like, uh, it's for me, it's like when I get into something, like I really get interested in it, and I probably, my wife, she's my poor wife. She probably thinks like, Jay, are you reading yet another research study, another?

look like buying another device. Yeah. So for me, Jay, I would love to see your genetic report. Like, well, I'm working on that. So again, shameless plug for wild health. Um, so anybody who's like interested in like genomics testing, DNA methylation, uh, like age testing, I always recommend the guys over at wild health.

So Mike Dawson, Mike Mallon, I mean, those, those guys are amazing at what they do. So we're doing a lot of this testing. I don't have it just yet. But we've done some pre testing, we'll do some post testing. The, the changes that I've seen from a biometrics perspective, and obviously if anybody kind of follows kind of what I do, obviously I'm checking heart rate variability, I'm looking at resting heart rate as two primary biometrics.

VO2max is very interesting because I've seen this linear increase in direction, but what I've also seen paired with this is a lowering in overall resting heart rate, and then also a increase in heart rate variability. Which for me is actually a really interesting one because I do so much for nervous system functioning that it can be difficult for me to move the needle much on that one just because I've kind of like tried so much stuff so I feel like I'm maximizing the benefit as much as possible on that end.

But this is one that I have seen an appreciable change. I mean, it's not a minor change. It's an appreciable change. So whereas generally my resting heart rate, like if you're looking let's say at Low heart rate on an overnight score with Aura, uh, or with whoop would generally kind of bottom out or be at its lowest range, and around 46 to 47 beats per minute.

And over the last course week, uh, uh, the last course, uh, the course of the last six weeks, I have seen a reduction to around 42 to 43. Beats per minute. So that's like a three beat per minute difference in six weeks in my low state heart rate, which is pretty good. I mean, I think that in general, we want to see kind of that lowing, lowered resting heart rate and lowered average and kind of that, that, that bottom, uh, if you will shelf.

So I've seen that and I've seen heart rate variability. Increase. I will say that if I do a week of workouts that are a little bit more intensive, so generally I do two VO, two max workouts a week. If I step it up to three or so, I'll start to see the declination in recovery. So I'll start to see that in heart rate variability.

I'll see an increase in heart rate, but it's great because I'm using the data to inform me when I'm pressing a little bit too hard. And I have the tendency to do that. First week I tried this funny little off story. The first week I started doing B two Mac training. I did four in one week. That was just really dumb, by the way.

Don't ever try it. It sucked doing it. And then also my recovery scores were awful. Um, it was impairing my sleep. It was impairing my nervous system recovery and functionality. Uh, heart rate variability suppressed, obviously heart rate increased and it wasn't good. I was over-training, like classic over-training 1 0 1 being seen here.

So again, it's another. Opportunity to use that data to better inform my decision making and say four is too much. Dial it down. Tried three still too much. Dial it down to the sweet spot. So good. And so, and how about for our biohacker babes, are there areas that you have, um, that you're playing with, with your data that have you as excited as Dr.

J or maybe even a percentage of excitement is

getting you excited going. It's really awesome to hear about the VO2max stuff because I think I need to dive a little bit deeper into that. I kind of have been like the lazy person when it comes to like the workout heart rate zones. Yeah. I go to Orange Theory, I strap this thing on, it tells me if I'm in the blue, the green, the orange, the red, and I'm like, okay, I got it.

You know what I mean? Yes. So I have some new inspiration to explore that a little bit more. So thanks for that. I would say for like other data and trackers. Well, one, I read an article the other day and they said, stress trackers will be the new step trackers of 2023. So, Dr. J. That's good news for you. Yes.

That's right. But I'm, I've really been lately into combining the aura ring with natural cycles. So for the ladies out there, I wanted to test it out to see if it was actually legit with how the data correlated to your cycle. And it has been on point for six months in a row now. So for women that are using maybe just like a regular app, but they have an aura ring, I would say get the natural cycles to sync it because.

You know, if your cycle, my cycle ranges 28 to 32 days, you know, if I'm a little more stressed one month, it might be a little bit longer kind of thing. But the ordering with natural cycles has been like to the minute accurate. Is that an app Renee? So natural cycles, is that like a separate app that like takes in or aggregates the data and then provides just kind of more information, more robust information?

Yep. Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah. So, yep. The partnership I think is within the last year. It's still pretty new, but, uh, cause the aura was trying to do some of that, but natural cycles has so much more information for women on there. I really think it's a good match. Absolutely. Yeah. It's such a game changer. I mean, the more that we have people realizing and dialing in on the difference that happens for hormones, if you are of menstruating age, and then can layer that in with your wearable trackers and stress, um, you know, kind of techniques.

Certainly this is the perfect group to discuss some of these, uh, things that are coming out. It's so, so huge because we do see that reliable, often dip into more of a Sympathetic response state in the second half of our cycle pretty routinely. So fantastic. Yeah. And something that might be coming out soon.

We actually interviewed Dr. Amatma Shah on our podcast. She's a fertility expert. She's doing a lot of research on just looking at basal body temperature. And there's going to be some interesting information coming out. Like we can learn a lot more from temperature than we possibly ever thought. So stay tuned on that.

Yeah. Amazing. Exciting. What about you, Lauren? Any call outs? Well, the CGM is just always a standard. It's the, you know, the target is always moving. There's always something new to learn in that realm. And I just, uh, I'm just so humbled by the CGM and what it can offer us as far as, um, some feedback on lifestyle, sleep, nutrition, things we've talked about in this podcast.

Um, I would say the second thing, something that came to mind when we were talking about VO2max blood chemistry, I've seen this is simply a theory and observational, but I've seen with clients that are tracking VO2max that we are seeing some improvement in blood chemistry markers over time. You know, correlation doesn't mean causation, but potentially if we're upregulating oxygenation and improving blood flow and circulation and our recovery.

We would then see downstream like in our physiology that would be expressing. So I am starting to kind of put some pieces together and potentially seeing some things being improved without zeroing in on like this marker is out of range. We got to fix this. It's like what do we need to do overall to improve our training?

Progressive overload. Look at our HRV and our recovery. How do we improve all of these holistic variables? And then can we see a change because we've enacted a change systemically. So I think like maybe stay tuned on that. It's kind of something I'm starting to put the pieces together on. And then lastly, I don't want to take this conversation too far in a different direction, but when you first asked about data, like something that I am really rabbit holing in right now is looking at my subjective data around microdosing.

So I started a new microdosing protocol and because I am very data number driven as a biohacker, because we geek out on it in these podcasts, I started tracking and I, I have this particular Journal right now that is very, uh, question specific and in the past when I'm microdosing, I've always loved a rating system.

1 out of 10. Where's my energy today? Where's my mood today? Because we know as biohackers, it's really easy to put those numbers together and tell a story and a narrative so we can see the change over time, right? Like numbers are just really easy. to digest. But I'm finding that the subjective data, uh, it's a little bit uncomfortable, uncomfortable, but there's also this opportunity to really push myself to describe the changes that I'm feeling and experiencing and living.

And so through word and writing and adjectives, like all this stuff is coming up that I can really track over time, that it's such a valuable feedback tool. So. Again, not to take the conversation another direction, but always coming back to this balance of objective and subjective data. How much can we learn from this objective?

And what is the ultimate goal of collecting the numbers? Can we integrate it to then use the subjective data to our, you know, to our benefit? Because it becomes Thank you. I think more connected to intrinsic motivation, or I think we could say like data is great for experiments, for baseline, for feedback, accountability, but over time, do we want to be attached to our devices for a lifetime?

I'm not sure that I do. I don't know. Like we could check in in a few months and a year, but I think my ultimate goal is to get off of them. So how do I build intrinsic motivation? By balancing those two like input input or feedback sources. So that's kind of where my head went out. Like how do we change the numbers into something subjective that can really be a tool for dialogue with our body and our organ systems and and the way that we perceive stress, recovery, mood, motivation, all those things.

Mm hmm. I like this, Lauren, because what. Resonates with me or where my mind goes on this one is that I try to preach to individuals. Maybe that's a bad word to use to try to teach individuals that in an effort to sustain behavior change and an effort to sustain motivation. Everything that we do has to be values laden.

So it has to come back to like, why are we doing what we're doing? Like what's truly the value system that's behind what we're doing? Because if it's just simply a vanity metric, why want to get my VO2 max up? If I simply had that. Level of drive just to make a benchmark in terms of my metrics, I might get there, but the sustainability of it's probably not much, but if I link it or tie it to my value system and I say, is this helping me live a values based or values driven life?

Or is this not helping me live a values driven life? Like that's probably the better Agreed. Sniff test or litmus test for what I'm doing. So for me, it's always like, how is this linked or tied to this an objective data outcome? But also, where is the subjective and values driven component? So I'm not just simply increasing my VO two max.

Even for longevity. Why would I why do I want to live longer like who cares? Oh, well, I want to live longer so that I can spend valuable time with the people I love To cuddle with my kids and my grandkids and my wife like all of those things matter to me and I am much more likely To make sense of the data and have excitability around the data if I have that at the forefront of my mind So I tell people all the time it's like if you're trying to lose weight and you simply say I want to go from 200 pounds to 180 pounds.

Well, that's fine to have that objective kind of data driven goal, like going from 200 to 180. Sure. That's great. But the likelihood of success there goes way down. If that's simply the sole thing that people are going after, or if it's just like aesthetics, I want to look better. Like maybe that will drive you for a certain period of time.

But it's not going to give you that deep level of intrinsic value and motivation that it will be if you tie it to the, then if you tie it to the things that truly matter to you, which again, it's just comes down to doing an assessment of am I, or what I'm doing, is it in line with my value system? Is it helping me or hindering me from living a values driven life?

I think that's so important on a macro level and I think just to come back to maybe reasons why people would do VO2max. Yes, I think that long term like core driven benefit like cost analysis is really valuable but like short term we could be saying I want to improve my VO2max because I am loyal to myself and I want to prove that to myself through behavioral commitments and responsibility.

Like loyalty could be a macro goal but also short term I'm running the scientific experiment because I want to prove to myself that I can show up to myself and be loyal to my health. So that could be more of like a micro versus macro. So good. What about you, Mollie? Yeah, I can weigh in on a couple interesting ones.

So one, just to bring it back to, I love this kind of the, the why. Why are we even caring about data? Why is it important? And could it be problematic? I know with Dr. J, the, uh, kind of infusion of stoicism and which can feel like, wait, how does that go in with, you know, what we're doing, but really getting clear on.

Um, simplicity and, and what are we getting out of this attention to these numbers? And I think to Lauren's point, um, I think it's so one of the reasons that I love this conversation of data as I really believe it's another angle in a personal development in a lot of ways. So it allows, so I work with so many, especially men, which is really interesting, um, in the world of sleep optimization.

And, uh, you know, improving overall health and well being. And I think because of this data driven approach, it allows a different angle into self awareness. And seeing, uh, well, suddenly when you see trends and numbers of just even the most simple of things, like, Oh my gosh, I actually, I thought I was waking up at around the same time.

It's like one of the most common things I see all the time. We have hundreds of people on our Oura Ring data dashboard. And one of the most common things I see is people say, I wake up at around the same time every day. And then we look at the numbers and then it's actually this rollercoaster all over the place.

And then only when they see it in black and white, can there just be this weird aha moment. Of like, a merging of subjective and objective realities. So... It blind spots all of us. Blinds all of us. Totally. A hundred percent. So a blind spot for me that I've been really working on, which is the most low tech thing in the world is walking, walking is like my new thing.

I shouldn't say new thing, but obsession. It's, it's, I don't know if I'm quite at the Dr. J level of excitement about this, but I am pretty excited. Because one of the metrics and data points that I'm pulling from this is I made this kind of personal promise that for every single day of 2023, I would get at least 10, 000 steps a day.

Now, there's a lot of, um, ruffles around, Oh, 10, 000 steps. Where does that come from? Is that, you know, even what's that based in yada, yada, yada. Okay. Having said that, that is my new baseline. I'm not even going to get into that. But that is my new, um, how I'm relating to is like, that's the bottom with the opportunity to even go, you know, more so than that in certain days that work out.

But bare minimum, that's the bottom. And I've just added in rucking. I'm kind of late to the rucking party. Uh, right. The rucking And so what I've been really having fun with is just noticing this slow dip in heart rate improvement, HRV, just by simply bringing this about, which it's so on brand for everything that I'm speaking to with sleep as a skill, because it's just an opportunity for us to Physically get ourselves outside more and in a creative way.

I love this concept of I'm even playing with adding on new packages for my programs where the knowledge is that we would both be on calls while walking to for the coaching calls, which would be like a whole other. You know, just different with your rucksack on. I mean, I haven't called that out, but I think I need to add that in there.

That could be a challenge, man. That could be a challenge to do, you know, especially if you're out in the Austin heat, you know, going up some hills on the phone with, you know, 40 to 60 pounds on your back. I'm like a Navy SEAL over here. Yeah, totally. So cool. So, um, so that's my latest obsession. The other thing that just for, you know, the, the novelty of it, I'll just drop that I'm excited, but I just added, um, I just got on the wait list for, did anyone see about the smart toilets coming out?

Putting it in there. Do explain. Does it exist? Like stool and urine and? So, you know, we'll see. This is out of, uh, Withings. So if anyone hasn't heard of this, this is at CES. It, um, got a lot of acclaim or buzz, I guess you could say. And the thinking is that this is a possible wave of the future where we have these smart homes.

enabled in all areas, uh, of our household, uh, that includes the ability to have direct hormone testing through your, uh, urine analysis. And so I just got on the wait list for that, and I'm speaking with the company around possibilities to be able to test this out and see what could be possible there.

Certainly from a sleep perspective, hormonal imbalances being, you know, a part of this conversation. So I'm excited about that, but that's a in the future, but I do believe that there's a lot of new exciting data breakthroughs, you know, that are coming. Um, and I think that that goes back to what Renee was talking about on the stress management wearables.

So I'd love if we could take a look at, you know, kind of shifting to that topic. And I feel like Dr. J, of course, uh, that's like your bread and butter. But, um, You know, understand so for people listening and saying stress management wearables, what would that even look like? And then what type of protocols would come about with that?

And for, you know, so certainly for my listeners looking to optimize their sleep, but for all of your listeners for overall health and well being. Why would that be important and what are some of these things that might be coming or that they could get on this train now? Yeah, I think just like the big question of why do we want to be looking at this?

I just think it's, it's really the next piece of overall health and wellness. I think we've been talking about the fitness, the nutrition, even sleep, right? It's been in the last couple years, but I think people are now more stressed than ever. Obviously, the mental health illness or issue that's going on right now.

And no one has really addressed the stress piece. I think it's been like, oh, the woo woo people do like the meditation and mindfulness, maybe like a gratitude journal, but it hasn't been more than that. And I think, I just think people are ready for the next step. And I think also being able to bring technology in, I think that just like pushes people further, right?

Like even tracking steps, right? Mollie, as soon as that piece of technology was out, people were like, Get your 10, 000 steps in, um, you know, things like my fitness pal tracking your food. It was like once that was an option on every phone, people started doing it. So I think as we have things like Hanu Health coming out, um, I think people are just going to jump on board much faster.

And then also with the longevity piece, a lot of people are talking about health span and longevity. And I think stress is the number one thing here. And I. I was talking about this on a podcast the other day with Lauren. I read this awesome article where they interviewed a hundred people that live to over a hundred.

And they said, give us just your one piece of advice for people. And I only saw one person say anything about what they ate. And it's a little embarrassing for me because my background is nutrition, but I'll be honest. One person was like, I eat a lot of vegetables every day. I'm like, awesome. But most of them were like.

It was all about the social piece. It was about reducing stress. Yeah, going out with friends and family. So I think that people are ready to attack the next piece of health. So well said. Totally agree. You know, the Interesting thing about emotional health is that it has been the redheaded stepchild of the kind of health pillars for the longest time.

And the reason being is probably twofold. One is that there's still plenty of stigma behind it. Who wants to, like, tell other people, I'm stressed, I'm anxious, I'm depressed, like, I have emotional dysfunction. Whereas it's like, oh, I eat like shit, you know, I sleep like shit and I don't work out like people are more willing to kind of discuss that and have people step alongside and help with that area.

But emotional health has really been kind of the thing that's put over to the side where we all acknowledge. Yeah, it's a kind of a part of health. I know I need to get a better grip on my stress response. My emotional health, my relationships aren't the greatest. It's like there's this acknowledgement there without a lot of action.

And to your point, Renee, like we are in the middle of a widespread pandemic of just chaos when it comes to mental health, and there's not a ton of light at the end of the tunnel, but I do believe we're headed in the right direction with a lot of our ability to integrate things. like biometrics and physiology monitoring with evidence based therapeutics and and I and I can get a little bit more into a monologue on that and I'll try not to but I think that the direction we're going there is going to be something that is going to help especially to Lauren's point.

People to identify their blind spots. I can't tell you how many people I've met that it say I don't live a stress free life. Like, you know, I'm doing good. Like I'm cruising along. They put Honu on tells a completely different story and we're like that we see a lot of dysfunction there. Like when you get rattled like you don't really recover.

Well, you get really rattled. And so I think that. Just like with blood glucose, maybe not a lot of people understood kind of what glucose was doing throughout the day. They started to see it with a CGM and now they're like, oh, oh, and you need to do something about that, like, because this has been going on for years and years and years.

People intuitively understand that the necessity for ex Exercise they intuitively understand sleep. But that is also one. I'm sure you can speak to Mollie that many people especially hard chargers until recently like saw as like kind of the bot. They were sleep was the bottom feeder, right? It's accounts 3 4 hours of sleep.

Who cares? Like I'm crushing it in life and then they die. And so I think what we're what's happening now is that we've identified kind of the role of nutrition we've identified and we're making action steps on on on exercise and then also on sleep and now it's kind of the point we're like, okay, it's unavoidable that we must assess and talk about and open up this discussion.

Of emotional and mental health and how that relates to overall health and if it continues to be the redheaded stepchild that's in the corner that we just don't talk about and we kind of ignore but acknowledge. Yeah, he's there but don't actually do something about it's going to further lead us down a path of destruction.

And obviously, I am a psychologist and I own a mental health company that does stress monitoring. So I understand fully my bias, but I think that it's not just me and those who own companies like mine who are preaching this right now. I think it's really everybody's come to the conclusion that this is paramount to health.

And so When it comes to kind of what we're seeing right now in the data biometric space, obviously HANU is doing and we're doing it in a way that's different than most people, right? We're looking at heart rate variability continuously, a very fine, granular, microscopic view of somebody's stress response, but also for us, we're saying, well, how do we integrate Because I know I preach this all the time, but with all the data and information without any actionable steps doesn't give us anything like it's basically useless.

And I am of the mindset to that simply tracking stress and then doing something like breath work or biofeedback or meditation. I think these are immensely helpful. I think that these are paramount to really high quality emotional health, but I don't think that. suffice. I think that when people are truly having emotional dysregulation, which is more people than not, by the way, I think we want to make it clear that it's more people than not are having problems with emotional health and mental health.

Uh, when we simply kind of go and utilize some of these targeted therapeutics, they can help transiently. But for a lot of these individuals, we are stuck so much in this narrative and so much in this kind of cognitive fusion of all of these things that we believe define us as who we are, that that problem is also not being addressed.

And this is actually really the direction that HANU is going just to be completely transparent in that we want to integrate all of these amazing health behaviors. that we know are really good for mental health, good nutrition, good sleep, you know, really high quality exercise, but then also bring in kind of the more psychotherapeutic and counseling type of therapies that are used and found to be evidence based and layer that on top of things as well, because people can do all of these great Behaviors for emotional mental health and well being, but if they're not addressing kind of the inner dictator that's kind of directing all of their decisions, then all of those things are going to be great acutely, but it's also just going to be still there and they have to address it as well.

So I think that in this world of data and biometrics, we need something that can help open people's eyes to their blind spots, but then we also have to follow it up with really good. Rigorous approaches and aggressive approaches to enhancing stress resiliency and mental and emotional health, just like if we saw someone had a really low VO two max to go back to that analogy, we wouldn't just say, okay, you have a low VO two max.

See you later. No, we would give a protocol, a precise protocol. And I think that's where we're headed right now with stress monitoring. It's not just saying, oh, hey, you have, you know, low stress, medium stress, high stress type thing. And, you know, good luck. Go do a breathing exercise. Yes. Not saying that that's a bad thing.

It's kind of what predominantly Hanu does right now, but our next iteration and where we're going is you using intuitive AI and machine based learning to provide a very precise roadmap that includes those components, but also includes the mechanisms for helping people to change kind of the inner dictator and kind of the more or less the, uh, the, the kind of cognitive spiraling infusion.

I know that I went way too far into that than I probably should have, but I think it speaks. my passion for helping people to realize that emotional health cannot be the redheaded stepchild anymore. Like it just, it just can't. And, and I think until it becomes completely de stigmatized, which I don't think it ever will, honestly, I think it'll always be kind of like more or less stigmatized compared to all the other health pillars until it becomes more forefront in our minds in terms of health and health span.

I think we're in big trouble. All right. I'm going to get off. Thanks. I think we all. It's like hard. Yes. Agree. Yes. I'm so glad you brought up the narrative because yes, I think the pendulum has swung to the other end of mental health where there is more talk about it and you know, quote unquote openness around this idea, but it's gone too far where it's it's now like a guise.

It's a wall that we hide behind because we can just we can be the stress and we can hide behind that. And it's really just an excuse to not. Be radically honest and look at the things that we need to do to change and show up better in the world. And so narratives are created just so easily and thoughts become proteins.

So then it's like embedded in our physiology and it's expressing in our DNA. So it's, it's really freaking important, as you said, but, um, I think when it comes to data. We can create a whole new narrative that may not be positive, so how do we stay open? I find that that is really the challenge for us as a human species with the brains that we have.

Like, how do we stay open and not get attached to a particular story? And just as you said, you have Clients to say, I'm not stressed. We look at HRV. Oh my God, it's telling a different story. I see it on glucose. I eat so healthy. I'm like, well, your glucose doesn't say that. Same with sleep. Like we all could give so many examples of that.

But then also when we give actionable advice and we do some experiments, how do you also get attached to that new narrative? Like we always have to keep coming back to let's detach. Let's stay open. Let's Let's know that our bodies are dynamic and changing every single day. We are not the same person that we were like from a physiological perspective yesterday, as we are today, as we will be tomorrow.

And I think the, the coaching stuff is just so important. That's why I love plant medicines potentially as a behavioral change aspect because The brain is just so strong and dictates a lot of us. We keep going down the same path like we take the same, you know, the analogy is the same. Um, the same snow.

What is the word? The ski route? No, the train. What is it? The snow? The snow trail. Yeah. Trail. Trail. It's the trail. Yeah. We take the same ski trail because it's comfortable. Yeah. Right? We don't go through the woods. We don't go off of like fresh snow and make new tracks and stuff. Yeah. Plant medicine, which calms down the default mode network and allows us to create these new paths so we can stay open and have a new narrative whenever we see fit and wish to change that because what's true today is not going to be true tomorrow.

So I think there's a lot of exciting things, but I'm glad you brought that up the behavioral component, and I'm just really fired up about how potentially. plant medicines could feed into that rewiring of the brain. So good. And so, and Rene, you touched on too from your, from the article, is, is this, uh, area that you're also looking at with other types of wearables, um, that you can speak to too, from the stress reduction perspective?

Are there certain strategies that like in your own life? I don't mean to just put it for Rene, but I know you, you mentioned that article. Curious. Um, yeah, I mean, I've been looking at the stress component for a long time. I was kind of forced to, you know, and you guys know my story in 2008, I graduated and just totally crashed and burned because I was the person sleeping four hours a night, type A, go, go, go.

I still have that person inside me. I'm always I use.

You know, I use my HANU device. I use the BrainTap. I use the AmpCoil. Like, I incorporate a lot of these technologies to support my parasympathetic nervous system. How can I offset the stress that I maybe still take on? So, I mean, it's, it's a never ending journey, I would say. And, And I still love the data.

I'm a big fan of the data, but I had a really interesting experience lately. I was at a Healthspan Mastermind, and two of the speakers were talking about data sovereignty. And they said, I will not wear any wearables. I don't want anyone to have any possible data on me. And I'm looking down and I'm like, I have my honey strap on, my bio strap, my aura.

I'm like, your dad a costume. Yeah. Maybe had a CGM on that day too. I don't know. But yeah, I was like, gosh, I've never been in a room where I actually feel. Like the oddball to have all the data collectors on, but it was interesting hearing that perspective. They said, I don't want anyone to have my data out there.

And actually, this is almost a question back to you guys. What are your thoughts on, on that? Are we concerned? I know, obviously different companies are handling your data differently. Some are straight up just selling your data. I know there's a concern around do insurance companies eventually get a hold of that.

And use that against you down the road versus other companies are not selling your data and it's protected. I don't know. Thoughts? HANU does not sell your data. Your data is protected. Just so everybody is informed. Thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you. And when we do research, it's internal and everything is disassociated from your name.

So your name doesn't obviously get published when we throw data. Out there, I mean, we're looking at how effective is this, um, and are we seeing active change? And if not, like Hanu wants to do something about it, like we wouldn't want to just kind of keep going down the same path if it's not working. This is an interesting discussion point because I kind of lean in both directions.

Maybe it's just the cognitive dissonance that's going on in my brain right now because it's obviously like. You know, the, uh, from an ethics perspective, like I, I'm a researcher and a scientist. So for me, I understand the nature of even why a company would sell data again, Hanu does not, but I understand why they would, because most of it is for research oriented purposes.

Um, so it's for public. It's for the advancement of science. And so I understand that intuitively. I've been a part of these studies. I've been a part of, you know, being a principal investigator for these studies. So I get it. I also though kind of from the consumer standpoint when we see kind of how there have been data leaks and information being passed around and that has negatively impacted people.

I think when they think about their own physiological data when we think about their own, you know, blood biomarker or genetics data, it can be scary to think about how that could. be maybe potentially utilized against you in some level or capacity. I tend to err more on the side of not being afraid of companies and maybe I don't think it's necessarily an inherent trust for companies but it's for me it's like I gain so much value from it that it offsets the potential downside of data being handled in maybe a way that isn't as kosher for me.

So I think it's just a cost benefit analysis. I just tend to Uh, think that I gain enough benefit from it to not have that aspect be enough to dissuade me from use. I'm in that camp too and maybe it's a little naive but I think I, I believe in the greater good of science and I'm so eager to get more information so I'm like whatever you need to start giving us more information.

Things on HRV and glucose where there isn't a lot of long term Good clinical research, especially in a healthy population. And I want it. So if I can feed into that and get more out of this and also life is too short, like give it to me. And to your point, those data that are being used are being used to advance science, but also to make the product that you're using, that you're already gaining value, hopefully from even better yet.

Um, so it's, it's not like it's out there, like, you know, you got the mad scientist thinking, Oh, how can I use this for world domination? There might be those companies that are doing that, but really it's for the advancement of science. And I think that there may be, and again, this could be naive, but there has to be kind of like this hope that the information is used for a level of altruism for the greater good of society and humanity, or at least that's how I conceptualize it as someone who owns a data science, you know, digital mental health company is that The the way we utilize data is in an effort to improve not to not improve kind of what we do and improve the life and well being of people.

So again, I think there's, there's going to be people who argue it. Um, some, I think, are going to line up a little bit more on the conspiracy side of things. And then some of it are just kind of like people who are. Genuinely nervous about it because they've been burned before or they've seen it play out in a way that hasn't been very good.

And so I, everybody comes from their own unique walk and so I, I just, I understand it and I get it. And you know, someone's at, we get emails all the time at Hanu of like, how do you use this data? Like, are you selling it to where we're very transparent? Like we were an open book about it. We're like. No, like we, we, we don't right now.

Am I saying that we would never sell it? Um, I don't know. I doubt we will. I just don't see a lot of benefit. We, we need it internally so we can make the product better and we're publishing research studies anyway. So I don't know what we would have a reason to sell it for, but yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I definitely align with, with what you both said. And I think there's a couple other things to look at, like. You know, the advertising side of things, like they're using your data to then advertise certain things to you. But maybe this is naive as well, but I'm like, okay, so they saw my sleep data.

So they're going to advertise a sleep mask, like a sleep pill. Like I, you know, I'm not like an impulse buyer. So like, bring on the ads. It's not going to like impact me. Versus the other end of the spectrum, like the genetics, right? 23 and me, I think it's been the big one that has been slapped on the wrist for what they're doing is like, yeah, and in 50 years from now, is my insurance going to drop me because they say, you know, we saw in your genetics when you were 18 that this was going to happen or, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. I have an interesting conversation. Yeah. What's up? Totally. Yeah. No, I, I, similar to what you, uh, pointed out with the 23andme, I think if anything, the one area that I do have more pause for, even though I have tested my genetics in multiple companies, but I have not done the 23andme, um, and there's certain.

areas or certain I've seen heightened concerns or question marks or red flags for clients on the genetic testing in particular. So I think you do make a good call out on there to just ask some of those questions. Like Dr. J said, people say, Oh, what are you doing with this data? What can we expect? You can be an informed consumer and then make that choice, you know, depending on what comes back from the individual company.

And then the second thing. I was just also at a mastermind, I guess masterminds galore, and um, one of the takeaways from this one was just about data in general and protection of your data across the intranets, if you will, and was Speaking to there's literally this one guy that's like a real life Mr.

Robot, essentially, if you've ever seen Mr. Robot, like a real life hacker that has, you know, hacking since he was like 14 and now is used with the military or the U. S. government, um, on being able to kind of safe house or to be able to protect the vulnerabilities of different, uh, you know, governmental agencies.

So really, really knowledgeable in the realm of hacking into your data. So if that's a concern of people being able to, if you want to, if you're like a public figure might be targeted for a particular reason, and people want to use your data against you, then some of his go to kind of takeaways were just so basic.

It's almost funny, but two factor across the board, one password, which actually I have on my list of things to do. Fully switch everything over to one password, not last pass. Sorry, last pass. They've been hacked a bunch of times. So different ways to protect yourself in addition to being informed, I think could be an area to like how to navigate this world of a lot of information.

And I mean, Just a couple minutes ago, I was talking about getting data from your toilet. I mean, my gosh, we're, we're going into a future where we're going to have a lot of data. So I do think that's an important, kind of call out, Renee. That's really great. And I think maybe that would go to just the last question to kind of round this out.

Um, as we kind of do think fully about the whole world of data and for any listeners of. Maybe they're newer on this world of into the world of kind of quote unquote biohacking or exploring, you know, their health through metrics and understanding certain pitfalls and kind of ways to think about this.

So, uh, in the world of sleep, one of the things I see for a lot of people is the nocebo effect, where if they wake up and then they look, oh, no, I got a 62 in my readiness and a 59 or whatever, right? These numbers then leading to a particular. way that they're approaching their days. And curious if you all have any, um, strategies or approaches that you suggest for your clients or for yourself or both on how to navigate data and be empowered and not necessarily fully at the effect of.

Yeah, I think I'm on. I think I'm on record saying this a bunch, but I think it bears repeating that for me. It is a part of my morning routine, at least initially to not check any data whatsoever. My routine. Generally, I've changed this a little bit. Um, I was trying to think about how much to disclose and not disclose.

I used to take a shower every morning and I don't anymore. Um, and the reason being is just simply because I was like, I don't know why I'm I'm taking a shower like I immediately go to the gym like after I'm done with like my morning routine, I go to the gym and I get nasty and sweaty. Why am I taking a shower?

Like I was to quote unquote wake up and I was like, I don't need it. But when I was doing that, and I'll talk about my routine. Now, if you are someone who showers first thing in the morning when you get up, For me, that was always my check in time. So I would get out of bed, no data review. Like, phone stays, you know, away from me.

I go into the shower and I took like, basically like a full body scan. And it was like, how am I feeling right now? Are my muscles feeling tense? Do I feel recovered? Do I feel energetic? Just kind of like doing this constant subjective body scan prior to anything else. Because I found, to your point, Mollie, If I, I used to jump first thing like my, the first thing I would do would be phone open or a score every single morning, you know, from the time I, you know, got aura back in whenever they came out, was that 2015, 2016, whenever it was, uh, I, I did it every morning and.

I would live out the self fulfilling prophecy of that score. 62 out of 65? Bad day. No need to work out. Low energy. And it's kind of this head scratcher, but it shows you the powerful effects psychologically. And behaviorally that checking this data can have if you haven't done any of the other check ins, it's kind of moving way too far on that side of the spectrum.

Whereas for me, it became and still is a part of my morning routine to check in first. I have found that I am pretty good about kind of, you know, I've seen so much data now, and I've checked in so many times, I'm pretty good about kind of knowing generally where the range of that score is going to be anyway.

That's the goal! Amazing! Yeah, that's, that's the goal. So for me, I'm basically using that data to confirm and be like, you know, I, and you know, I, I don't, I wouldn't say I'm good enough to know like, oh, how much percent of my night was in deep or rim. I'm not sure if I can assess that, but overall, like I'm generally know where I'm going to be.

And so for me, it's like, it's always saying, how do I check in first? So it doesn't lead me down the pathway of a self fulfilling prophecy of checking later. So, I mean, sorry of, of, of checking it objectively first. So, that's my routine that I do every morning without fail. Like, if you catch me, like, looking at my aura score or, you know, even looking at Hanu prior to me checking into the body, uh, then I would say that it's a, that's, that's an odd day.

It doesn't happen very often. Maybe, maybe it happens every once in a while, but not very often. I love that. Okay, and Renee and Lauren, any, uh, tips for people? I do the same. I and I love that practice. And now sometimes I want my aura to upload because I take it out of airplane mode, but I don't want to look at it.

So I have this practice where I like open, but I don't look at the app. I like turn my head and then close it so that it charges and uploads, but I don't see it immediately. But yeah, I think the check ins are so important and maybe like on a larger cycle, like a macro cycle cycling off of something like your ring or your CGM and seeing if you can kind of do that.

That check in guess where do you intrinsically know what your score is going to be without that data to confirm it. And for me, that's the lifelong goal. Can I build so much in intrinsic accountability and like this very deep relationship with how my body is performing and the feedback it's giving me without the data.

So it's like an off. I'll call it like the off season. So you're, you take the CGM off, you're not wearing it. Are you so conditioned and in tune with your body's signals that you know, like Doctor J said, I, you said, you can kind of assume what your score is gonna be without it. Can you do that? Like, lifelong.

So, Really training for the off season rather than training for the end season. Can we train for the off season so that that communication is just so dialed in? So at the macro cycle, like planning for those off periods, planning for a data fast, planning to have those more subjective conversations so that at some point we can get off of it.

And I think there's always going to be value in checking back in because the body's dynamic. We change, we get older. So it's not like this experiment is going to end here and now like I do think in a year if you haven't had a cgm on you should probably put one back on in five years from now you should check back in with all of this stuff.

But for me the goal is to train. I've never said that before train for the off season. I like it a coin it put it on a shirt tattoo. Yeah, exactly. Did you have some mushrooms today or something? You're like coming up with all these new terms. I am in a protocol. I'm in a protocol. Brain is on fire. Yeah, exactly.

Uh, yeah, I mean, I guess I'm kind of like both of you too with the waiting to check the data. It kind of happens. a little bit more naturally because I put everything in airplane mode. So I would say if you have any devices, putting it in airplane mode for me just helps because in the morning, I'm not going to immediately go and like take everything off and plug it in.

I'm just, I'm not going to do that. So I naturally don't see my data for at least an hour or two. So waiting. And then as far as like getting the good scores and bad scores, I think it's so dependent on your personality. Like I think just know yourself. If it, If you're really impacted by those scores, like yeah, like Lauren said, do a data fast for a while.

Maybe just use like a notebook as your daily check in for a while. For me, it doesn't bother me. I kind of laugh at my scores sometimes. Like the other morning, Sunday morning, I woke up and I'll be honest, Saturday night, went out for my husband's birthday, had a couple cocktails, slept in an extremely hot, torturous hotel room.

It was a nightmare. The hotel thermostat hack did not work. Sad story. But anyways, I woke up and my score was 78 readiness. I'm like, yeah, that's not, not as bad as I was expecting. Yeah, I feel like you get both. Like you get the side of like, that wasn't as bad as I was expecting, but then you also get. I don't feel that crappy today.

So I feel like that both ends of the spectrum kind of balance each other out over time. I mean, that's what I've seen in five years of checking the data. And, you know, I think also having the, uh, Oura ring and the BioStrap, seeing the discrepancies in the scores. Yeah, you have to laugh a little bit because when they don't match up, you're just like this is entertaining for me.

Yeah, it's entertaining. I love that you said that because I think it's such a good practice and compassion, self compassion, being able to laugh at yourself and have that ease and not one like gets wrapped up in a particular narrative and potentially create a stress response and it. I'm laughing at you saying that because I was singing the sound of music this morning on my nature walk.

And there was a particular line in that song, the sound of music, that really like got stuck in my head. When she sang, uh, she sings, Laugh like a brook as it trips and falls over stones on its way. Like this is a natural pattern in nature that nature kind of laughs when it trips and falls, but it keeps going.

It like stays in flow. And that was like my profound morning microdosing moment. But I was like, we have to laugh at ourselves. Like what, what's the worst that happens? I think the worst that happens is that we create a stress response and a poor narrative. So why? You gotta get on this protocol that you're on.

Singing, the hills are alive. No, I was skipping down the street singing, the hills are alive. And the neighbors are calling the cops. They're like, uh, she's at it again. It's 4. 30 in the morning and Lauren's going at it.

Wow. Okay. Well, um, that's fantastic. These are so many great, you know, kind of, uh, insights and perspectives. Oh, I, I guess I should share mine too. One practice that I've been loving right now has been a, I, I actually haven't mentioned this on any of my podcasts yet, but. A nighttime or bedroom iPad. This is my thing.

So it's always, let me explain. So basically, um, what this is, it's, there's, I have this concept of bookends to your days. So you wanna bookend your day where you have kind of, uh, as Lauren and Renee were putting it on their, uh, social media, Dr. Quiet, uh, so that you have your, kind of your own piece on each side of your bookends of your day.

So morning and night, and so for me, one of the aspects that I do to really ensure that I have structures where I'm not using my phone on either side is this bedroom iPad. And so the iPad has like nothing on it, and it's always on airplane mode. It basically, it's always on the red, you know, kind of setting the color filters.

And from that, it just effectively is like a book. It's like a Kindle book, and then it has alarms, you know, so you can have that by your bedside. No EMFs, the whole thing. And that's been a great way to, one, unwind in the evening, two, to have no, like, kind of, um, uh, the addictive draw to the phone in the early morning hours.

So it's just one other structure so that I'm not going to the phone as quickly as my brain would like to. So that's been a really helpful piece to have some of that, uh, you know, Kind of buffering in between when you first wake up and you're going through kind of sleep inertia and you're still in this kind of twilight state, going from a sleep state to an awake state.

Your brain is not fully, you know, firing at all cylinders. So to then have an imprint of. you know, what could be deemed as a stress response for some people, I think that can be just a helpful practice of a little bit of time. But I really love what you said, Renee, because I think this is so important for, especially for my people from the sleep, um, world, there can be a real tendency for perfectionistic tendencies or qualities when we're having, uh, that can lead and be a, Contributing factor to sleep issues.

So there can be a tendency to say, Oh, no, if I don't have the crown or if I don't have, you know, whatever metric or wearable you're using, if it's not deemed as good or positive to have a problem with the information. But I think that's one of the breakthroughs. to actually having great sleep from a sleep perspective is to actually know that you are never going to have fantastic sleep across the board every single night.

And the freedom that comes from that is just fantastic. So I think just having that at play, being able to laugh, I think that's such a huge and powerful and in, you know, enlightened state to come from is like Buddha Renee, uh, you know. That we can all take on a little bit of that. So I thank you for kind of, uh, you know, closing us out with that sense or that statement or that approach and framework.

So one, thank you all for our fourth round table. I hope that the, for the listener, there was lots of gems in there. And I think we really. Fulfilled on that, I hope, and for anyone that might have questions for any of us, if we didn't, you know, go in deep enough on certain things, please reach out to any of us.

I know, like I'm clear, these are just fantastic humans and really committed to making a difference with people. So if you have any questions, reach out, we can make ourselves available to kind of clarify or what have you, but just thank you all. This is amazing. So inspired by all of you, and I'm going to be up in, you know, my VO2 max, uh, you know, Awareness and all the maybe get on the micro dosing of lots of takeaways from this conversation.

Thanks for hosting Mollie. Oh, well, thank you all. This is fantastic. More to come.

You've been listening to the sleep is a skill podcast, the number one podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out something that I call Mollie's Monday obsessions, containing everything that I'm obsessing over in the world of sleep.

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