116: Dr. Satchin Panda, Groundbreaking Author, Professor, & Researcher: Top Circadian Rhythms Expert Answers WHEN You Should Eat, Move, & MORE For Great Sleep!

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie McGlocklin and I own a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability and behavioral change. Each week, I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper.

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Let's jump into your dose of practical sleep training.

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Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. Cass, you are not going to believe the guests that we have on for you here today. Dr. Satchin Panda, I have mentioned his name, his work, his research, the implications of what he's finding on so many podcasts in so many of my live cohort programs that we run people through to make a difference with their sleep, with my private clients, in my newsletters, on social media, in conversations.

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I mean, I have mentioned this man's work. Time and time again. So I can absolutely tell you that it was a huge honor to have him on this podcast today, given the impact that his work has on the greater good. And we'll get into the why of that. But first I want to give you a little bit of background on this very special guest.

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So again, Dr. Satchin Panda is a leading expert in the field of circadian rhythm research. He is a professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies and a founding executive member of the Center for Circadian Biology at the University of California, San Diego. Dr. Panda is a Pew Biomedical Scholar and a recipient of the Julie Martin Mid Career Award in Aging Research.

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As a recognition of the impact of his work regarding circadian rhythms and diabetes. Dr. Panda has been invited to speak at conferences around the world, including Diabetes UK and American Diabetes Association, the Danish Diabetes Association, and the respective professional diabetes societies of Europe and Australia.

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And if you're listening and thinking, well, I don't have diabetes. I don't need to tune in. Listen up. This is absolutely for you. If you are a human being, this podcast is for you. One of the huge impacts that I find on the ground with our hundreds and hundreds of participants that are wearing our oar rings is the immense impact that the timing of your meals has on your sleep, on the strength of your circadian rhythm, on the biometrics that will come out on your wearable trackers.

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Overall, how you feel, how well rested you feel when you wake up in the morning, which kind of is our goal, I believe for most of us, right? So you're going to be really fascinated by Kind of the blueprint that he lays out based on his findings in his research on how you can apply These principles in meal timing to your day to day life.

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And we get into of course, greater topics in the world of circadian rhythm. And then also really fascinating how Dr. Satchin Panda is managing his sleep, his nighttime routine, his morning routine, what's on his nightstand and the things that have made the biggest difference in the management of his sleep.

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So you're going to absolutely want to tune in, not just for the beginning, not for the middle, but. to the entire end of this podcast, I promise you it's going to make a difference in how you are navigating not only your sleep, your meal timing, but we also get into things like where should your exercise routine go, your light timing, thought timing and beyond.

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So I get a lot of questions around sleep supplements and I'm very hesitant to just throw out a whole laundry list of possibilities. One, I don't think it's the most responsible thing to do. I really do believe in testing to see what. Types of supplements make sense for you, and two, because I really truly believe that most of the things that you can do to improve your sleep are behavioral, psychological, environmental, and nature, and often don't cost a dime.

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However, there is one supplement that I personally take every day and that I do feel quite comfortable with suggesting for most individuals to experiment with because of a couple of reasons. It's high safety profile and high rates of deficiencies in our modern society. Some put the numbers as somewhere around 80% of the population being deficient in this one area, and that is magnesium.

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So magnesium has been called the calming mineral, and some report that magnesium can increase GABA, which encourages relaxation on a cellular level, which is critical for sleep. Magnesium also plays a key role in regulating our body's stress response system. Those with magnesium deficiency usually have higher anxiety and stress levels, which negatively impact sleep as well.

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Now before you go out and buy a magnesium supplement, it's important to understand that most magnesium products out there are either synthetic or They only have one to two forms of magnesium when in reality your body needs all seven forms of this essential sleep mineral. So that's why I recommend a product from my friends over at BioOptimizers.

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They have created something called the Magnesium Breakthrough. And taking this magnesium before bed helps you relax and wake up refreshed wearables.

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I will share anecdotally that many clients have reported improvements in their deep sleep trend numbers. Again, I don't want you going nuts on the sleep stage classification numbers on your wearables, but I do want to let you know about that because I know that many of you do reach out on. questions of how to improve your deep sleep.

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And finally, you can get 10% off Magnesium Breakthrough, again, that's the magnesium supplement that I use every single night, by going to www. mag. com. M A G, so madbreakthrough. com forward slash sleep as a skill and be sure to use the code sleep as a skill for 10% off. And welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast.

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This is a very exciting day, honestly, out of. The many, many episodes that we have done here at Sleep is a Skill. This one is a big one, and I'm so, so grateful to welcome Dr. Satchin Panda. Dr. Satchin Panda, you don't know it, but I feel like I've mentioned your name so many times on this podcast. in conversations with people, just really espousing the difference that you're making in the world of circadian health, circadian biology, the management of our health and well being.

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So just, oh, thank you for the work you're doing and for taking the time to be here. It's like really, really a big deal. Thank you so much. And I'm really happy to be here. Fantastic. So I'm also going to be cognizant of your time. So my challenge as always, I tend to want to extract all the information from some of our guests.

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So I'm going to really try to dial it in to be conscientious of the time that you have available. So let's begin with how did you find yourself in this world of Circadian health, circadian biology, and how it makes this difference in certainly meal timing, light, these time givers, these zeitgeibers, and how they affect our circadian health and the strength of our circadian rhythm.

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How in the world did you find yourself in this space? Well, the thing is, when we think about disease or health, we always think of, um, in biomedical research, we always think of what a particular diet or, say, supplement can do to our body. Yes. But if we think about our health and disease, the timing is a huge component.

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It's about, so the best biomarker of healthy lifestyle or healthy state is actually Um, everything in our life happening at the right time of the day or night. So for example, if we, if we go to sleep and fall asleep right away and then stay in bed for seven or eight hours with restorative sleep and the next day morning as we get up, we feel fully rested and we have a, you know, um, morning cortisol surge to keep us a lot.

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And then throughout the day, for the first half of the day, our, our, our executive function is pretty high. Our glucose metabolism, glucose handling is pretty good. And then in the second half of the day, our muscle tone goes up and we're ready for exercise. And then in the evening, we have very different set of skills that comes up.

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For example, our emotional health is much better in the evening. We tend to connect pretty well and we think about different aspects of life, all the, you know, um, performing arts or visual arts and connecting with people. All of that happens in the evening time and then we go back to sleep. The best thing is so what was curious to me was why we are not studying the biology of time and how different drugs, supplements, habits, light, everything, how they interact with our body to maintain this perfect timing.

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Because when we get When you think of disease, we always think of disease as a dysfunction of a, of an organ or a brain, but actually most of the disease is also disease of time, mistiming. For example, diabetes is a disease of mistiming where the glucose has to go up after every meal, even for healthy people it goes up.

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But in diabetes, it just goes continues to go, go off for a long time, and it also takes a long time to come back. Similarly, cancer is a disease of time, because the cells should not divide that quickly, they have to wait until that time comes. But they just go faster in terms of timing. Similarly, many neurodegenerative, sorry, neurological disease is about timing, because the nerves fire too fast or too slow.

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So that's how I got interested in timing, and one of the universal timing that we all share. Um, among all humans and also we sell with animals and plants is this 24 hours timing. So that's how I got into sleep and circadian rhythms. The big, big topic. Absolutely. I mean, are you in agreement that do you feel like some of the future of wellness is going to have much more of this infusion of time?

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as a component of the strategy behind how we're organizing our kind of goals around health and well being, meaning that right now, you know, the new year comes and people hire their personal trainers or nutritionists. They make these kind of proclamations and declarations to improve their health and well being, but I don't always know that time is a component of those in the mainstream conversations.

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Do you foresee kind of from a standing in a visionary perspective that This will start to ripple into our everyday conversations a bit more. Yeah, I guess, uh, you actually hit the nail on its head because if we look at human history, we have been on this planet for 200, 000 years, roughly, and for most part of it, until up to say 150 years ago, um, Our lifestyle was in sync with day night cycle, and we didn't have to even think about timing, because we are taking timing cues from when the sun goes up, when the sun goes down.

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Only in the last 150 years, after industrialization and after electrical lighting, that we could light up the evening. And could stay awake, but only in the last, I would say, 25 to 50 years, lighting became so cheap that we don't even think about our lighting bill, I mean, you can get an electric bill, but the light component is pretty small and furthermore, what have, what has happened is, um, we realize that if we stay awake late into the night and do our homework, if you're a student or, you know, You know, entertain yourself with streaming services and et cetera, then you feel good momentarily.

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Yes. And then the other thing that's happening is, uh, for industrialized society, we need to have at least one quarter of our working adults to engage in shift work. That means they have to work at night, swing shift, evening shift, morning shift, all this. And then their family members are also second hand shift workers because they're also disturbed by their significant other's lifestyle.

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Then if we think about all these high school students, college students, young adults, they stay up late into the night finishing their homework or assignments or socializing. So in that way, we have a crisis of circadian rhythm disruption because Almost every human being is going through this disrupted circadian rhythm, reduced sleep, fragmented sleep, insufficient sleep, that's just one tip of the iceberg, um, at least for a few years in their lifetime.

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And when we go through this circadian rhythm disruption, although we get an instant gratification of connecting with our loved ones and socializing later into the night, or finishing a homework or something, we all know that the next day feels crappy. And that's just, that's again, just the tip of the iceberg because within our body, a lot of things are going wrong.

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And, um, I would say that every night we stay awake or reduce our sleep. and disrupt our circadian rhythm by late night eating or mistimed eating, we may be actually aging ourselves by a couple of days extra. And just imagine if we add up, then that's a huge amount of um, um, time that is wasted. The second thing is, if we think about productivity, because at the end of the day, society figures out whether we are productive enough.

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Are we spending our time and productive work and also taking less number of sick leave? And just imagine if we actually can take care of our circadian rhythm, then not only will be more productive, we'll also reduce sick leave and we'll also reduce the long term healthcare spending from macroeconomic point of view.

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So I guess we are at the point where we, where we build this. modern world without paying attention to circadian rhythm or how timing affects our body. So that's how, for example, we design shift work. We don't pay attention to what time we should be, um, assigning, um, homework to our high school and college students.

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What time should be the assignment time, submission time and late night classes and et cetera. And now we are coming to a Realize that this anthropogenic world that we built without paying attention to time is not going to sustain long-term health. So we need changes, but it's a very broad, huge problem because it goes from personal time management to family values, to cultural values of the society, to shift work, scheduling by, uh, employer.

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And then where people can afford to live, how much they can commute and public policies, for example, when schools should start and, um, even managing the sick ones in ICU and, and hospitals when, when the lights are dimmed down, when they should turn right back on. when people should be getting their vaccination, when people should be getting their chemo, or what time they should be taking their medication, all of this.

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So there's a huge potential that circadian rhythm signs, if implemented correctly, can actually lead to both personal health gain, increased healthy lifespan, and also from a societal point of view, much healthier society from economic point of view. increase in human productivity and reduction in healthcare spending that can be diverted towards, say, education and other aspects that enrich our human life.

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Wow. Preach. I love that. The crisis in circadian health, circadian timing, circadian misalignment, that is so well said in kind of the wide. uh, reaching impact that that brings into many areas of health and well being. I think for many people, unexpected areas, productivity, mood, emotional regulation, all of these things that we might not even at first glance think are a part of the story.

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So hugely important and so well said. And so beginning at one component of circadian disruption, beginning just with the meal timing piece, because this is one of the ones that I find so many people so just confused on and they hear so many different conversations. So meaning that. We have a lot of people that are listening that are kind of identifies like biohackers, or they're looking to be optimal.

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And so they want to leverage sleep and circadian health to be optimal in whatever way, shape or form that means. And so with that, then they want to know, well, I heard this other big health influencer, they skip breakfast. And this other person just has one meal a day and a lot of different theories on the when.

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for meal timing and a lot of counter, you know, kind of thoughts and approaches. So I'm wondering if you can help just from a, that circadian perspective, bringing it back to the fact that as diurnal creatures meant to be active by day and at rest at night and some of the things that can fall amiss when we start to go outside of that.

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How can we think about this? How can we think about when to eat, when not to eat, how this affects our performance, and just kind of what some of the latest research is pointing to on that one topic. I know because I know there's so many because I know we could go in many direct because there's so many things to your point.

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The timing of our exercise, the timing of our light timing, there's so many things. And so even just to start there, what do we see? How can we, how can we make a difference here? Well, the thing is we cannot since it's circadian and this is there are two major aspects of to circadian rather than sleep and being awake and most of us we eat when we're awake.

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So that's why a meal timing of when to eat when we are awake. Um, has to be, the first rule of thumb is it has to be timed according to our sleep. Um, so when people say I don't eat until noon, then they, what they don't talk about is what time they wake up. Yes. Are they waking up at 10 o'clock in the morning and then they're eating their first meal at 12?

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It's not bad. Yeah. But imagine if somebody is waking up at four o'clock in the morning and he hears this. He has this, uh, word of quote unquote wisdom that you should not eat before noon, then that's very difficult to practice. So let's, uh, break it down. So, uh, and then how, why, or how to time your meal. So, for example, we all know that during our sleep, um, during our sleep, melatonin, the sleep hormone goes up and stays pretty high.

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And, uh, this melatonin actually begins to rise. Maybe two to three hours before our habitual sleep time. So that means if we go to bed at, say, ten at night, then melatonin begins to rise at seven, between seven and eight. And then it reaches its peak a couple of hours after we go to bed. And two to three hours before we wake up, it also begins to go down.

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Um, but actually after we wake up, it takes one, two, or in some cases even three hours for that melatonin to go back to daytime level. So now, if we think of now sleep, As the period in which we obviously should not be eating and we don't want to eat, we don't want to wake up, even if we wake up, going back to sleep, for going back to sleep is not eat.

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So now the question is how we can use this melatonin information. That means. Melatonin begins to rise two hours before, a rule of thumb, two hours before we go to bed and comes back to baseline two hours after we wake up. And what is the relationship between melatonin and food? Um, so in the last 10 years or so, one of the biggest surprise.

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biggest finding in circadian rhythm and sleep is this melatonin that we always thought is a sleep hormone that makes our brain to sleep, um, also makes our pancreas to sleep. So that means when we eat. Uh, the glucose or carbohydrate in our meal, most of our meals have carbohydrate, um, a little bit of glucose or sugar, that goes and triggers a release of insulin from pancreas and insulin helps the glucose to be absorbed into different organs.

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So if we don't produce enough insulin that glucose can float, float around and increase the blood sugar level and over a long period of time that can actually lead to Type 2 diabetes or in some cases even obesity. So now we all want to maintain our blood glucose level and blood insulin level optimal.

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So that means if we eat very close to our bedtime or very close to after waking up, then we are actually doing a little bit more harm to our body because melatonin is still there. Melatonin is still suppressing. pancreas ability to produce insulin. So our body doesn't produce enough insulin and other molecules to handle that carbohydrate optimally.

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So that gives this idea that we should avoid eating for at least two to three hours before bedtime because when we eat it's not like Within 10 minutes our blood glucose is getting handled. It takes roughly 30 to 90 minutes for our blood glucose level to go up and then insulin to be released and then that should be absorbed well.

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So that means your last meal before going to bed should be at least three hours before your habitual bedtime. So we, we cover like one bookend, so that's once a week or last week. So now in the morning, if we think about the same thing, insulin, um, which is, uh, can go down and which is the daytime, very low level, undetectable level, say after two, two hours after waking up.

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Some people, it can be even one hour. So then, the rule of thumb is yes, we should not be eating for at least one to two hours after waking up. So, um, and when we wake up, our cortisol level, the stress hormone level also begins to rise and reaches its peak somewhere between wake up time and one hour after wake up.

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So that's the highest level of cortisol, the highest level of stress hormone we get. throughout the day. Even during the day, if you're stressed out about work, if you're stressed about, stressed out, stressed out about anything else, you don't produce as high cortisol as you produce in the morning. So that's very important to know that.

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We always think that we are stressed out and our cortisol level is high, but actually, We produce our highest cortisol level within the first hour after waking up. And we know that cortisol or stress hormone is also not a good thing for glucose handling because it also disrupts in our glucose handling process.

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So now we can combine at least these two information about cortisol and morning insulin, sorry, morning melatonin. Um, to decide that we should wait at least one or two hours, uh, after waking up to have the first bite of food that contains carbohydrate almost every, every breakfast that we can think of as God.

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So that's just one aspect. And then people ask, well, what about coffee, tea? Because people just want to get up and have something in our mouth. We are designed, we have been programmed to keep our mouth open as soon as we open our eyes. And you know, we say, yes, there are three Exceptions to this rule that, um, you should not be drinking even coffee or tea before your breakfast.

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The one exception to the rule is if your job depends on it. Like, for example, people who are working in, um, who are TV hosts. They are doing the morning TV show. Of course, their work depends on it to stay awake. Second is, um, if you have to drive. In the morning, it's better to be cognitively driving than actually sleep deprived and driving.

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And then the third one is, I always say, if this is the only love in your life, we don't want to take it away. It's very considerate of you.

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But you have to keep in mind that. Particularly those who are at a high risk for anxiety, panic attack,

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or acid reflux or heartburn, having a very strong coffee without milk and sugar in empty stomach in the morning can adjust to some of these conditions. So be mindful about that when you think that, okay, so you can have only black coffee in the morning and, um, that's not going to technically break your.

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Insulin or glucose fast, but it might have different effects. So if you're not sensitive to, um, acid reflux or panic attack, run jacket, maybe. Okay. Got it. So that leads to this idea of how your meal and now suppose say we take 8 hours in bed that everybody should have and then subtract. three hours before bedtime, and then two hours after waking up.

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So that's almost 13 hours of no food zone. So that is 11 hours, 11 to 12 hours, because you know, occasionally it can go to 12, uh, to eat. And then the question is, how do you time? What are you to do? Eat everything within eight hours, nine hours, 10 hours, and or one meal, two meal, all that stuff. I think we, in all of our clinical trials, we advise our participants to self select.

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A 10 hour window that within which they can eat and the reason why 10 hours is animal studies have shown 10 hours is good enough and 10 hours is good enough for most people because some people may find it very difficult to stick to eight hours, six hours, four hours. It's not enough. The eating window is not long enough to even have any social interaction.

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Um, for many of us will risk of being. And there is another risk that when we substantially reduce our eating time to say eight hours or less, or follow some health hacks, advice that we should eat only one meal a day, then many of us cannot

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We also have to keep in mind that this time restricted eating, what we call time restricted eating and this popular now intermittent fasting, um, that's not the only foundation for health because we have to be physically active and just think about it. We, people's, uh, the national recommendation is 150 calories.

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minutes of brisk physical activity, but actually most of us need more than that, uh, 300, 350 minutes in a week. And besides that, if you're, um, an athlete and most, most people who are actually paying attention to their meal timing or meal quality, they're also paying attention to their physical health, they're exercising.

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And if you exercise and if you're a normal weight person or moderately overweight and you reduce your... Um, calorie intake by reducing eating in trouble, then, uh, over a long period of time, maybe over a month or two or three months, something like that, uh, some people can be what we call negative energy deficit.

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So that means. that eating dangerously less amount of calories than their body and their exercise routine requires. So, for men, it may not be immediately obvious, but those women in the premenopausal stage who are still ovulating, they will experience, uh, they might experience, um, missing, uh, cycle or delayed cycle.

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And many women think that if they're physically active and they're eating healthy, Uh, particularly athletes who are doing long distance running and many athletes, they feel, they think that missing a period is normal. It's so common that it's normal, but it's not. That's a telltale sign that you are eating less food than your body and physical activity needs.

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So this is one concern that is not discussed properly and in popular media, uh, because everybody thinks that, okay, so timeless eating, you do eight hours, six hours or four hours or one meal a day and you lose some weight. And then you go back to your regular, whenever you want to eat that kind of lifestyle.

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But what we think is timing of food should be integral part of your lifestyle that you do every single day. So we should think about a timing interval or the eating time window that we can stick to for most of our life. And in that context, if somebody is normal weight, physically active and eating healthy food, they can even eat two or three meals within 12 hours window and they'll be okay.

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That'd be fine. But if somebody wants to improve their health by reducing some blood pressure, blood cholesterol, or blood glucose, then they can combine, say, 8 to 10 hours time restricted eating with optimum nutrition. That doesn't give you the license that we should be eating only ice cream and nachos within those 8 to 10 hours, but you can combine that.

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to have better health benefits. Wow. Okay. So out of what Dr. Satchin Pan is saying, how should I set up my day? So they might be hearing some of your advice for many is to pick your 10 hour eating window, right? And out of that 10 hour window, these are some of the things that I hear from people. They say, okay, well, so in the morning I need to take this time before I eat.

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One, thanks for addressing the coffee piece because that's like always that question, but then they might say, well, is that a good time to exercise is to fill kind of that gap between I wake up, I've got to kill some time or whatever in my morning routine before I can eat. So can I exercise during that time?

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Have that be kind of a wake promoting activity and then eat? Do you find any kind of benefits there or is that just the jury's still out? I know you mentioned that there's certain benefits to later in the day for kind of moving that the muscle aptitude or the ability to move our muscles later in the day.

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Do you have any theories on that? Would that be a good stack for some people? Well, people always ask what, so the question is if you're waking up and if you're waiting for breakfast. Yes. Yeah. What can we do? Yeah. What can we do? Uh, there are many things people do. So one thing is anyways, one after we wake up a morning routine, just taking care of ourselves, getting ready.

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That itself is somewhere between 30 minutes, one hour. And then the question is, what can you do that also is in alignment with your circadian rhythm? Exactly. So, um, the first rule of thumb is after you wake up, make sure that you open all your curtains and windows to get natural light to come in. And just going around your house.

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Opening the blinds and windows to let light come in. Of course, you may be waking up while it is still dark outside, but still you can still go open all the curtains. Yes. And then after you finish your routine or before you finish your routine, whatever you like, one can actually go outdoor. So if you're living.

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In a single family detached house with a backyard or something, or if you have a dog and take the dog for a walk in the morning because that morning light. It is really going to reset your circadian rhythm and also it elevates mood. It reduces melatonin, it's very effective in reducing the natural melatonin that our body makes.

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Um, so if you're going for that 15 minutes, 30 minutes walk with your dog, or if you just go for a brisk walk or a low pace run. Um, whatever you can handle outdoor, uh, then that's the best way to combine physical, some physical activity and getting some light in your system so that it elevates mood, reduces depression, also makes your brain ready for the rest of the day.

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Then the question is, should you go to the gym and do resistance training and all this stuff? Yeah, it all depends on what you can do, because I'm hearing a lot of people that they say, well, that's the only time I can go to the gym. So I go to the gym. I just know my limit and I do my stuff and then come back and have a big breakfast.

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And that's also good because You know, you may not, I don't know, some people may or may not be able to lift the maximum weight and do the best exercise routine they want. But coming back and eating a healthy diet actually helps your muscle to build up and repair and rejuvenate itself. So there is no hard and fast rule that you should not exercise in the morning or is it bad for you?

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Exercise at any time of the day is good. It's good. Great. Okay. But when it comes to some people, if you, if you are more flexible and you can decide when you can exercise, then afternoon exercise is better, uh, for many reasons. One is when we wake up in the morning, a corporate temperature, body temperature is not warm enough.

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So that's why this. idea that you should warm up before you exercise because our body is not warm enough. Um, so when it's not warm enough, then our muscle and joints don't move as fluidly. Our motor coordination is not fully optimal. So there is some tiny risk for injury and late in afternoon. That's when our core body temperature, body temperature is typically at its high in late afternoon.

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And so that's why there is naturally you don't need that warm up. As much as you need in the morning and second, um, your risk for injury is reduced. And this is very important for people who are older, uh, who are, who have to be mindful about that injury or joint pain. And also many older individuals do have a little bit of joint pain if they have.

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arthritis, mild arthritis, just stiff joint in the morning. So it's better for them to do exercise in the afternoon. It's not only comfort or convenience. Those who have Say high blood pressure or high blood sugar due to type 2 diabetes New research is showing that afternoon exercise is much better in managing blood glucose and blood Blood pressure than the same exercise in the morning.

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These are some of the new research shows Um, and it has been now shown repeatedly in many different studies. So that's why the common advice is okay. So you try to do your exercise in the late afternoon. That may be better to handle glucose. And why is that? Because when we exercise a muscle become almost like sponge to absorb glucose.

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And as the day progresses, our pancreas ability to produce insulin that helps. muscle and different organs to soak up glucose that also goes down. So our pancreas is not as effective in the late afternoon, evening or late night as it is in the first half of the day. But exercise can compensate for that reduced function of the pancreas.

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So that's why late afternoon, evening exercise, whether it's before your dinner or after your dinner. actually helps to soak up glucose much better. That late afternoon, early evening exercise, meaning like full on exercise or kind of like a brisk walk or... All kinds of exercise. Okay. Yeah. Great. To the extent that people have gone back to, you know, many world records or the West Coast team fighting East Coast and playing against the home team and all of this, we always see.

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There's some advantage of this. Uh, late afternoon, early evening physical activity, whether it just involves running, walking a ball and stake, um, like, um, uh, professional sports. So, almost in every aspect, there is evidence that there is. you know, this data that the late afternoon, early evening is better than early morning.

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Sure. One thing I love about your delivery of this information is that I appreciate that you share it kind of on a spectrum of what people's lifestyle look like. So we do see a tendency for Some people that are listening, myself included, some people that are listening to this type of podcast, they, people with sleep difficulties, sometimes we see a tendency for perfectionistic kind of attitude or ways of relating to some of this information.

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So, I appreciate that you share. Alright, well, if you're schedule is one that exercise in the morning is kind of going to be where you can fit it. There's benefits there. And if we do have the flexibility for anyone listening, that they can set up their days in a particular way, there could be real clear benefits and to engaging in some of their main exercise of their day in the, that late afternoon, early evening.

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timeframe. So I appreciate that so they can find themselves in that information and then go deeper on that research. So, so helpful. Now, one other piece that we get people asking a ton on is this conversation of the last bite of food. Now, I know you already mentioned kind of the three hour call out around last bite of food.

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Now, some people, because so many of the people that we're working with have these wearables, and certainly over here at Sleepy's, it's Scale. We've got hundreds of people using certainly at least Aura rings, if not whoop bands, bios, strap, et cetera, been super great, but we're still seeing some interesting things from meal timing.

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Now, I'm curious your thoughts on some of the studies looking at early time restricted feeding, where people are ending their meals close to like 2:00 PM 3:00 PM and having a much longer window and curious if that is a valid. And a place to experiment or if you have any concerns or call outs around that, I guess the other piece that's made some press in this space is, um, if you've seen Brian Johnson, the, the guy who's trying to kind of reverse his age, right?

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And is calling out around his last bite of food being like 10 hours before bed. So, but Dr. Pia Rattia speaking to certain research on ending your meal timing aggressively earlier. Your thoughts, do you have concerns or call outs or what do you see there? Well, there is no strong research in that area.

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This early time history reading that was kind of, uh, published in a way as if it's better than late. Yeah. But frankly, there was no head to head comparison between early versus late. Okay. Second, those early time history reading studies that are published and heavily, Uh, cited involved very few participants, five weeks only overweight or moderately overweight men only, no women, and also it did not take into account what is the habitual wake up time or, uh, what is the habitual sleep time.

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If you look carefully. Most of the six hours time you're sitting, those are claimed as early time you're sitting in the morning. Um, if you look carefully, they do list quite a lot of adverse side effects. Hmm. Including nausea, headache, difficulty falling asleep. Yes, some of the, some of very few health hacks.

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Who have a personal chef to figure out what the daily calories should be and every single meal is designed for them. It may be okay to practice and experiment, but for regular mortal beings like me and many other people. It's very difficult to finish your meal around one or two. And if you have a family, your kids are running around.

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And if you have a social life, for example, many of them, most of us do have a social life and we mingle with people and we actually consider sharing it, sharing a small meal or a bite, uh, gives us much more pleasure than ending our meal time 10 hours before bedtime. I'm sorry. Those of you. who may be following that.

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Yes, it may be perfect for you. For most of us. When I think of translation, how can we make a, what can we do or how can we make the needle move for most people? And in that case, um, we few things we haven't seen any solid scientific research that takes into account the sleep wake cycle, wake up time, particularly, and whether early versus late.

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The point is you can classify something early versus late when you're eating within six hours or less. But if, and what we see is what is socially, uh, practiced for long period of time, long period means for years or for your lifetime that you can practice is maybe 10, uh, 9, 10, 11, that area. And when you think of 9, 10 or 11, anyways, 1 should not be eating for 12 to 13 hours that we discussed because plus or minus 2 hours, um, around your sleep time.

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So that gives you 12 hours. Or 11 to 12 hours maximum to eat. So there, early versus late actually doesn't make a big difference. And, um, only when you're thinking about five hours, six hours, one meal, two meal, there may be, you can experiment with that. But again, um, it all depends on, as we discussed, your exercise schedule.

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So, for example, if you're finishing your meal around 2 or 3 o'clock, but you have opportunity to exercise only after 5 or 6, and if you go into negative energy balance, you can experience long term adverse effect. And also short term, some people may not sleep well, some people may not find it easy, they might have headache, nausea.

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So all of these have to be personalized. And when we think about a personal, we always think of personalized health. Yes. And in personalized health, uh, the biggest thing is you have to experiment on yourself.

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You have to be the best personal coach of yourself. So that means you figure out. So that's why in all of our clinical trials, we ask people, look at your schedule, look at your social commitment, your family commitment, and decide which 10 hours or eight hours or nine hours is best for you. And then they come up with a window and they stick to it.

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And in fact, in many of our studies, although the studies are for three months or six months, if we look at one year, more than 60% of participants still continue to use this time to fitting because they had already chosen a window that is very personalized and they have taken that decision. what they should be doing.

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It's not the researcher who came and told skip your breakfast and start at 12 or listen to them. They figured out. So that's, that's most important thing to keep in mind. Um, figure out what you're, and then if you suppose say you choose to eat within six hours and you have a well balanced diet, you're eating enough and that meets your daily calorie maintenance calorie and physical exercise.

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At that point, if you, if you have a lot of wearables and if you're monitoring your health, then you can figure out whether you should start early. That doesn't mean that as soon as you wake up, you should eat, wake up one or two hours. Or you should end your dinner close to your bedtime. That means two to three hours before dinner.

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And then see which one. It fits best with your social life, personal life, and also with your own body and brain. So well said. Okay, well, to the point of what you shared about personalized nutrition and personalized health, people always want to know. The people that we bring on the podcast that have thought so deeply and researched so to such levels in their area, they want to know, well, what are they doing to manage their sleep, their health?

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So I'm very excited to hear about how you're managing your sleep and your health with the four questions that we do ask everyone. So our first question is, what does your nightly sleep routine look like? And so curious how, you know, meal timing fits into all of that for you. And of course, as you have pointed to, you know, I'm sure there's considerations and call outs and you travel and you got all these different things at play, but what would we often see that we might be able to learn from?

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I guess you've, um, pointed out a few things. So your preparation for sleep begins with the last meal of the day. Yes, totally. So that means, um, if your habitual bedtime is Between 10 and 11. So that's when I typically go to bed and you should stop eating at least three hours before that bedtime. So that means for me, I actually stopped eating somewhere between 6.

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30 and 7. 30. Beautiful. So that's my. Kitchen closes at 7 for example. Great. And then depending on whether I had a busy day, light day, and if I had done enough exercise or not, either I go for a walk or a run before dinner. or a brisk walk after dinners because that helps to, again, manage, um, blood glucose if I'm not diabetic or I'm not even pre diabetic, but it's just a habit.

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And that's, that's going for a walk either alone or with my wife is actually a very nice time to unwind and decouple what happened during the day and what is going to happen in the night because of what we do at daytime and what we do. After sunset or after our last meal is very different world because before dinner is all about work and other stuff and after dinner that last three to four hours before bed is a very different world because that's when we can, we have time to entertain ourselves, think deeply, connect with people, connect with family, connect with the society.

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So the walk before dinner, walk after dinner. Uh, it's kind of the transition point between these two stages of the day. And of course, right after that, um, I typically avoid going to any grocery store, any drug store or any store that has bright light because most of the stores now have at least 1000 lots of light or more.

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Yes. Research has shown that we should not be exposed to that much of light. We should be actually exposed to less than 40 lux of light in the evening. So that means I tend to spend most of the evening at home, um, or if I'm, uh, or if I have to go and meet somewhere, someone, then we usually try to choose a place that's not brightly lit.

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Love it. Love it. Love it. And then, uh, my phone, my computer, everything is programmed to dim down around, say, eight o'clock. And actually, my phone is always set to the dimmest level, and so is my laptop. But they also do spectral change, so they go from normal to a little bit orange color, so that it's kind of a nudge.

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Yes. For me, to think about, huh, it's already 8 or 9 and I should get ready for sleep. Yeah. So this is something everybody should immediately do. At least go back to your phone, program it, and laptop, because, just think about it. We have. Program to wake up. We have morning alarm. Think of that way. Can there be some nudges in the evening that will nudge us to get ready for sleep and the spectral shift, night shift, time shift or whatever programs you have is a nudge.

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That you should get ready for sleep and then sometimes, depending on the season, if it is too hot or whether I went for a run or something, it's always good to have a shower in the evening. So that also cools down your body, uh, core body temperature so that you can have a good night of sleep. So these are some of the usual routines.

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Avoid bright light, avoid food, and then, um, get ready for sleep by maybe a shower. I was going to ask you about that. I'm glad you touched on the shower piece because, um, we'll have a lot of people that also from the optimal and optimization perspective, they might be bringing in heat. therapies in their evening for that kind of paradoxical cooling effect thereafter.

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So they might do saunas, hot baths, hot shower or warm showers, but then have a lot of questions on is that, would you suggest that? And if so, A lot of them might be wearing continuous glucose monitors and they'll see for some people a big spike in or some sort of spike in glucose from that heat and questions of would you advise that?

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Would you put a certain buffer for kind of time to cool down thereafter? Any thoughts on that? Again, you kind of answered most of it because some people say there's some people. Some people, yes. It's personalized approach. It's personalized. I mean, you got to fit that into whether you like a hot sour or hot bath or sauna or heat therapy.

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Yeah. Or a course sour, because there's also another spectrum where people are plunging into ice bath , so Totally. Yeah. The point is, whatever. you feel comfortable because, um, the point is it's not going to kill you.

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Yeah, right. So if you have wearable and you brought up a good point that some people even a little bit of stress Can increase their glucose and, you know, these days, um, people are thinking that, okay, glucose increase any kind of glucose increase is bad, but actually it's not too bad. I mean, unless it goes up, say, 200 milligram per deciliter and stays there for a few, uh, 30 minutes to an hour, it's concerning.

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But, um, and CGM, another thing we have to also keep in mind is CGMs are not. Accurate all the time. Yes. Why? It's because CGM is measuring interstitial glucose and the chemistry of measuring glucose can also be temperature dependent as in most chemistry, most chemical reactions of detection methodology.

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Also depends on the ambient temperature. All the CGMs are designed to work maybe up to 38, 39 or 40 degrees centigrade because of body temperature fluctuates somewhere between 36 to 38 degrees centigrade. But if you're getting into 60 degrees, 70 degrees, 80 degrees boiling hot water, then you also have to think about how the wearable.

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Which is not designed to be in the course of a, whether it will be giving you a reading that may concern you, but your actual blood glucose is different. So wise. Okay. Thank you for kind of, uh, giving us some guidance on that. That's really well said. So now we've got a sense for your evening. Super curious on the flip side, your mornings, what your morning quote unquote sleep routine might look like.

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And we say that, you know, tongue in cheek with the concept that how your mornings are set up could impact your sleep results at night. So, uh, what's the latest for you on your mornings? Well, the morning, usually after I wake up, I open the windows and then, uh, after the usual stuff getting ready, um, or during that time, I actually go to the backyard and check the plants such as the bird feeder and, um, we live on top of a canyon.

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So sometimes there are. Wild animals, deers or coyotes, they are on the canyon slopes. So it's good to, it's nice to watch them sometimes. Amazing. And some days when, um, I know that I cannot go for a walk or run in the evening, I also go for a brisk walk in the morning or go for a, um, um, like a slow run in the morning.

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Sure. But I make sure that I typically avoid any, any strenuous physical activity in the mornings if I have traveled across time zones in the last two or three days. Because this is something, uh, that is not well discussed in the popular media, but it's, it comes from many other data that people often develop, people who are otherwise very fit.

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Or people who just started exercising, if they do too much exercise in the morning either with a insufficiently fragmented sleep night or after jet lag, then the heart may not function well. Some people might get it. It's very rare, of course. Yes, sure. Very mild cardiac event. And in fact, another example is, uh, when...

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Uh, time, the daylight saving or this time changes happen particularly when we fall back, we have to wake up an hour earlier. That's when the heart is not ready and you're waking up. Those two or three days are the one of the days when the morning cardiac event actually goes up. The calls to emergency rooms actually go up.

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Um, this is something that I've discussed with my people and then they say, huh, I know so and so, or someone in my family, he had just come back from this trip and he always does exercise in the morning and he had a event in the morning. So, um, that's why that's just a suggestion for people who might have a heart condition, particularly those who already had 1 event in the, in the past of those who are at a very high risk.

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Um, that may think about. Wow. Well, thank you for adding that. And certainly on the daylight savings time shifts that we have every year. So, um, frustratingly enough that we keep doing this. But, uh, thank you for kind of calling that out. That's super important. And as you pointed to jet lag, just a quick question, because we've had different experts on the podcast that have spoken, there's been some conflicting call outs around jet lag and meal timing.

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And I'm just curious, For you, when you are managing your jet lag, you're factoring in meal timing into that equation, correct? Yeah, because there are many laboratory studies that have shown that, um, in animals, when you simulate jet lag by changing meal timing, we can actually reduce the severity of jet lag or the days, uh, of jet lag.

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Yeah. And, um. I think the rule of thumb is if you, if you keep to your time restricted eating window. So for example, I, um, tend to start eating my breakfast is usually between 7. 30 and 8 in the morning because I end between 6. 30, um, to 7 in the evening. Um, but for example, sometimes I have to take an early flight, early morning flight.

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So I'm waking up early and I'm in the airport by 5. or 6. 30 am flight. Um, but I don't eat. But I see a lot of people they get to the airport and then the first thing they want to have is a big Yeah Coffee with a lot of sugar and cream and that's just Yeah, you don't need that because you're going to be sedentary for the next X number of hours.

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And it's okay to fall asleep or feel sleepy or they, um, have very early morning, they have breakfast. So the point is in those days, when you're traveling, you can stay on your Schedule, or if you want, you can even delay your breakfast. So, for example, if I'm going from West Coast to East Coast, I know that I'll be reaching there.

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Say, the plan lands somewhere between 3 and 6 in the afternoon or evening. And then if I have to take a bite, maybe I'll take a bite in flight. Um, sure. Sometimes I can skip that completely because I'm not doing anything. I'm just serenity. I'm just.

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So that's one way and then coming back, a lot of people, they come back, they're flying back, reaching home somewhere between evening and eight, nine, 10 or 11, something like that. And I still say they go back home. And since they're coming back home after X number of days, the family members are excited.

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They want to have a late night dinner. That's again, the wrong thing to do. Yeah. Um, sorry. people can manage that, then they'll be great. And particularly when you're traveling international from say US to Europe, those flights are so short, six to seven hours flight, usually overnight. So the only thing you should be doing is sleep in flight.

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Nothing else. You should not be even taking any bite because You know, when you land in Europe, those breakfasts are much better than your airline. Yeah, exactly. Brilliant. Love

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that. Okay. And that's interesting what you said too about your, it sounds as if part of your thinking and your decision making process is tied to how much activity or energy you're going to be exerting. So you say to yourself, I'm going to be sitting on this flight for an extended period of time. I'm not going to be burning up any of those calories or the energy that I'm taking in.

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So that seems to make a difference in your choices. Is that the same rules apply in your days? Because I guess I'm surprised by that because I guess I would have been thinking that the consistency is everything and you want to try to have consistent meal timing but that's not always the case. Is that accurate?

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No, the meal timing is consistent. It's the size of the meal. The example I gave, so I'm waking up early, I'm getting into my flight, say at 6. 30, and then the flight 30, and then by seven local time, the flight attendants are coming and giving you, offering you some calorie content, but I try not to order that because it's not my eating time yet.

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Even if I grab something, I'll wait until say 7. 30 or 8 when I'm supposed to eat, and I'll stick to that. I see. So you're keeping it consistent, but I may not be eating a big breakfast that I typically eat at home. Yeah. And then come to work. On those days when I'm flying, my meals are pretty small. And only if I, if I know that I will be exercising in the evening, going to the gym or something like that, then my...

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Afternoon meal might be bigger. Yeah. Brilliant. Okay. And it sounds like you are pretty active. So just to underscore for your days, typically you might take like that kind of brisk walk in the morning, maybe a light jog. And then are you, and I know you mentioned you might have a little bit of that walk in the evening time.

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Do you put the bulk of your, like, strength training or any sort of your majority part of your exercise in your afternoons? Is that where you put them? Yeah. Typically in the afternoon. And also, you know, a lot of us, um, including me, I work in a building that has a lot of staircases. So I never take the elevator.

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So, for example, like, Sometimes if I'm sitting for a very long time at Salk Institute, we have six floors, so yeah, and we have 12 stairwells. So I actually have a, uh, for my life, I meditate stairs challenge. So the point is, can you go up and down of all the stairwells, 12 stairwells? Six floors, and that's a great exercise.

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I love that. So cool. So at workplace, you can also go and do this, but be careful, hold on to the railing because if you... Yes. We don't want any injuries on our hands. Yeah. So I typically walk a lot, and then if I have to talk to somebody, I do. I don't, if the person is in the institute, I usually walk there and talk in person.

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So that way, throughout the day, I mean, um, at work I can easily get, on the work day, I can easily get 10, 000 steps before I go home. So there's a lot of work going on. That's great. And I like how creative you're getting to just kind of blend this into your life because I think many people are busy and that feels kind of doable and a way to get creative.

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Fantastic. Okay, so then their third question would be what might we see on your nightstand or if you are traveling or what have you kind of like per real nightstand, maybe your supplements, etc. Yeah, so I don't take any sleeping pill There are a few things when, uh, when, when we, when I travel, there are many hotels who have very loud air conditioning or in general, they're not good windows.

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So, uh, I have my travel companion. Uh, I always have a neck pillow for the flight. Nice. Eye mask, most comfortable eye mask I can get, um, because if you're going to spend so much money on, on our dresses, why not find, invest into a good neck pillow and good eye mask. Yeah. And then ear plugs, again, most comfortable ear plugs you can get.

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They don't have to be expensive. The best ones are actually the ones that are used by construction workers. They are flexible, they are not so expensive, and since they have to wear it almost for seven, eight hours a day, uh, they're actually the best, not the ones that you get most expensive in the airport.

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So those are the, uh, my usual ones that I carry and also, you know, in hotel rooms sometimes, um, um, there are light shipping through. If I don't have a eye mask, then I try to bulk, uh, block as much light as possible. Sure. Sure. And the other thing is, um, when we sleep, our mattress plays a huge role, depending on what mattress you may have in the hotel room.

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It might, uh, help you cool your body down by absorbing heat, but then after three or four hours, it can reflect back all that heat and you may wake up, uh, with a warm bed and sweating. Um, so although I cannot control the hotel bed, I'll just... Uh, for two queen beds so that I can, if I wake up, I go to the other bed.

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That's smart. I've never heard of that. Oh, clever. Okay. So you want to the other and roll over. Oh my God. That's brilliant. Okay. Fantastic. Are you a proponent of, you know, kind of like the cooling mattress pads, like the toppers? Do you do any of that? I don't know any of that. No, none of that. I think of solutions that are most widely available.

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Totally. And you know, when I travel, I cannot carry my cooling mattress. Yeah, I know. Yeah, don't want to get addicted to that. Totally. Yeah. Okay. And then the last question would be, what has made the biggest change in your management of your sleep? Or said another way, maybe the biggest aha moment in managing your sleep.

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I guess, uh, just finish eating three hours before bedtime. Yeah. Is the best one because I know that sometimes if I have to go out for dinner with friends or colleagues, then I know that night I can't sleep well. I can predict the quality of my sleep. Yeah. Okay. And with that quick question, so many people, and I wonder if this irks you or if any thoughts where.

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People will suggest right before bed, have a spoonful of raw honey, a spoonful of almond butter, certain protein, et cetera. Are you a fan of that? Not a fan of that? Or does that fly? I don't see. I don't see any hard science behind that. You don't? Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. Uh, having said that, thank you for kind of, uh, clarifying or bringing to light your decades of research in this area and helping us to really filter out what's worth listening to what's not.

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So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Now. For anyone listening, I'm clear they're going to want to know both how to follow your work, the books to read from you, the apps to download, just the whole world of it. So if you can let people know the steps to take, that would be amazing. Yeah. So I have two books.

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One is the circadian chord, which is now. Translated in 16 or 18 different languages and that, uh, teaches the very basic of this science. What is circadian rhythm, how it regulates different aspects of our health and when it breaks down, how it can, uh, increase the risk for everything from insomnia, depression, ADHD, diabetes.

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Uh, different kinds of cancer and dementia, and that's all very well, uh, referenced in the book, what we can do to improve our circadian rhythm, uh, managing light, managing sleep, managing food timing and other factors that are important. So that's. One book, the second book is the circadian diabetes code. I wrote that book because I realized that nearly half of the adults in the U.

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S. are now pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic. Yeah. And when you think of diabetes, diabetes is just not one disease because diabetes always comes with its sinister friends. Because it brings high blood pressure, cholesterol, and then a lot of different, um, diseases that we don't easily connect. And I thought that this is, um, very important because almost everybody, either themselves or they know someone within their family who is prediabetic or type 2 diabetic.

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And what we're seeing is... sleep and circadian rhythm, meal timing included, can have a huge impact in reducing the risk for type 2 diabetes, managing pre diabetes, and also managing newly diagnosed type 2 diabetes. And now Um, there is also new research showing that time restricted eating, uh, this intermittent fasting, if done correctly, can also help people who have type 1 diabetes who are taking insulin.

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They can reduce their insulin doses and live a long, healthy life. So those are the two books. And then we recently launched an app, um, on time health, um, because people get, um, many of the health apps, um, either focus on exercise or sleep or nutrition, but then we realized that there are only five or six very simple time related things that people can do every single day.

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So that's why we launched this app on time health, where people have to just Think about five, four or five different things they have to do, and it's not meal logging, not how much exercise they should do and all that stuff. So we hope that these are going to help, um, thousands of millions of people to increase their healthy lifespan.

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So absolutely. Oh, so fantastic and highly, highly recommend and underscore that for anyone listening, download this app, get those books, all fantastic. And do you have a website that people should follow for any upcoming research or any suggestions there? Well, I mostly tweet about research, so my Twitter handle is Satchin Panda.

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Okay. Awesome. Incredible. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Just again, cannot be underscored enough and the difference that you're making in the world is so, so profound and I feel like just it's so far reaching. I think we're only newly and I hope that the message gets out being able to understand the ripple effect that this, that some of these practices can have not just on the obvious elements of that we might think of, but this, you know, kind of deleterious effects that can come out.

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That we might not have initially understood that can just be so far reaching. So thank you. Thank you for the work you're doing and thank you for your time. Yeah. Thank you and have a perfect circadian day. Yes. Thank you. You've been listening to the sleep is a skill podcast. The number one podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level.

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Every Monday, I send out something that I call Mollie's Monday obsessions containing everything that I'm obsessing over in the world of sleep. Head on over to sleep is a skill. Sign up.

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