126: Emily Johnson, Research Lead at Veri: Optimizing Glucose Levels: A Pathway to Restful Sleep

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie McGlocklin and I own a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper.

Let's jump into your dose of practical sleep training.

Welcome to the. Sleep as a skill podcast. Today, we're talking to all things, blood, sugar, and sleep. I'm actually wearing my continuous glucose monitor right now. And it is just some fascinating data as I'm kind of changing up my diet a little bit. I'm adding in more resistance training and so I'm adding a little bit more carbs and you learn all kinds of new things when you have this.

Data that's streaming back to you specifically around your body and exactly what you are doing with your health and wellbeing. But why are we talking about this on a podcast around sleep? Well, because for so many of you, you'll come my way and say that you're frustrated around how much you are waking up throughout the course of the night.

Well, if you are waking up throughout the course of night, there are many reasons that could be at the source of that. And I will tell you that blood sugar instability is a huge factor for so many people. And sadly, so many people have no idea. So getting something like a continuous glucose monitor can be game changing because you can see the roller coaster is happening both by day.

And if that roller coaster is happening by day, it's likely happening, almost guaranteed happening at night. And so what you'll see is some spikes and crashes, but particularly in the middle of the night, those times when you might find yourself waking up at around, you know, three, four in the morning, you'll see a often corresponding crash in glucose and then a.

Kind of stress response from the body. So now not only did you wake up, but you're up, up, not the type of up where you might just fall right back asleep. Sadly, with that stress response, it might take a little bit of time, which can certainly be frustrating. Now, again, there are many, many reasons for wake ups, but this is a really hugely important one that I think is missed by so many people.

And most of us could use some support here. We'll get into the weeds on this podcast, but. We do discuss some of the stats of putting it around 88% of Americans having metabolic dysfunction, and we can make the assumption that that extends outside of just America. So one of the reasons I brought Veri on the podcast is because they are a new sponsor to share about their ordering integration.

So they are really doubling down and making the point of how your blood sugar and sleep are very much interconnected and bi directional. So I'm very excited about this partnership. One of the reasons that I also like Veri is that they're one of the only international continuous glucose monitor companies so that you can get it in the UK and the EU.

And this has been a problem for me over the years where a lot of you want to have access to continuous glucose monitors, but it's a difficulty in getting these monitors. So Veri does help make a difference with that. And they are quite affordable. They're one of the more affordable ones on the market.

They did create a code for us. So it is V S M dash sleep as a skill. All caps is important. So V S M dash sleep as a skill, all caps again, much more affordable than some of the brands on the market. So I think that that can help democratize this ability to get this information for all of us. All right. So a little bit about our guests.

Emily Johnson is a registered dietitian with a master's degree in nutrition interventions, communication, and behavior change from Tufts university. Her background is in clinical nutrition research, health writing, and tech at Veri She is the research lead serving as the health and nutrition expert for the team and ensuring that all app features, marketing materials and publications are backed by rigorous scientific research.

I think you're going to really enjoy today's episode. If you have any questions, you can go to sleep as a skill. com and connect with me there, or you can email me directly at molly at. Sleep as a skill, Molly M O L L I E. Also would love to have you following on our different platforms. And we do a lot on Instagram as well as especially would love to have you on our newsletter.

So that's been going for five years strong. So you can sign up for that at sleep as a skill. com and it comes out to you every single Monday called sleep obsessions. Would love to have you on there. I read every. single response. So please don't hesitate to just shoot out kind of what's going on with your sleep and we'll make sure we get a dialogue going.

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Using a tool like Vari allows me to experiment not only with food, but workouts, stress management, and of course, sleep, and see how each choice is affecting my blood sugar in real time. It allows me to see which habits to keep, and which I should consider dropping. It can be a challenge to measure which interventions are working, so just like tracking your sleep can show you exactly which habits have the biggest impact on your rest and recovery, tracking your glucose is key to understanding how.

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Now invest in better sleep and in turn in a better, more energized life. And welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. This is going to be a fantastic conversation because we have Emily Johnson here from very, and very, you might've heard before starting this, that now they are one of our new sponsors. And I'm so, so grateful to be in partnership with them right now.

I'm actually wearing their continuous glucose monitor as we speak. You can't see, you know, I'm pointing to the arm, but. I got it on right now. And if the whole world could be wearing a continuous glucose monitor, I think a lot of things would really get illuminated, including its impact around our sleep.

So we're going to be talking about that. So Emily, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Molly, thank you so much for having me. I am pumped to be talking to you today about all things glucose, sleep, diet, how that all comes together. It's super fascinating stuff. And, uh, yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. And just, you know, your whole team has just been incredible. Everyone's just been so warm and clearly passionate on this topic and kind of getting the word out. And part of how we all got connected originally was. The excitement over the integration that you've brought in with the or ring platform.

So being able to thread in your or ring data with your continuous glucose monitor data, which before, you know, so much of us, we had to kind of, you know, hack this together to make the argument for people of and visually showing some of the impacts that if your glucose is all over the place and, you know, by day, then it's likely to be happening as well by night.

And some of the impact that that can have on your sleep. So it's starting to tell that story more clearly. So, you know, kind of starting at the beginning, um, wondering if you can help for us, one, just share a little bit about yourself of how you found yourself in this world and why you're, you know, kind of have that passion for this topic and how it connects to sleep, help us bridge that gap.

Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I do think that currently, you know, people are starting to understand a little bit more and start to see that connection. But I think, um, sleep and glucose aren't the things that you necessarily think of as going together right from the jump. Right? So I'm, I'm really excited to be working with Varian and working to elucidate that more because I think it really can help people get that full eight hours and the restful eight hours that they have been craving.

I know a lot of us have been craving. So, um, yeah, I, yeah. Uh have been working with Veri as their research lead. It's been really wonderful I am a dietitian by training and have a master's of science in nutrition interventions communication and behavior change. So I'm, really interested in the way that diet can Affect our health affect our lives.

Um and and sleep being a big part of that Uh, which is, which is super, super interesting, super cool. Um, and so very is a metabolic health company that has an app, um, and they also use a continuous glucose monitor to help you understand, uh, sort of the hub, uh, for the spokes that are. diet, lifestyle, um, exercise and, and sleep, right?

And so glucose is sort of that central thing that helps you understand the way that all of these other factors of your lifestyle are then impacting your metabolic health. So we're sort of on this quest to help people better understand their metabolic health, um, help people better understand the way that glucose is affecting, like a lot of the things in their lives, right?

Anything from, From mood to cravings to sleep, right? That's, that's why we're here. So, um, I think like you said, a big, a big thing that people are starting to understand or starting to see, and we're hoping to elucidate is the way that. Your glucose, the fluctuations that you have throughout the day and your habits around, um, diet, for example, um, are affecting your glucose, which is then connected to your sleep.

So hoping to, um, with our CGM, connecting the dots between glucose and sleep so that you can see this data, you can pinpoint where you're actually having problems with your sleep and you can take corrective action rather than sort of the banging your head against the wall of I'm doing everything right.

Why am I not getting that good sleep? Absolutely. Uh, so, so helpful and I think it's just so pervasive. I'm wondering if you can share any like generalized numbers or ballpark kind of ideas on how many people might be dealing with this. So if people are listening and they're like, well, is this me? I don't, I don't know.

What's maybe either some of the symptoms or the amount of people that might be dealing with this problem? Totally. So right now, you know, this is kind of the thing that various is founded on and sort of the crux of our mission is we're in a metabolic health crisis globally and also in the U. S. You know, there was a recent study that said about 12% of Americans are metabolically healthy.

And so that's a very small percentage right of a large country. And so that means that basically there's these five markers of metabolic health, which are your waist circumference, your blood pressure, your cholesterol, your triglycerides and your glucose levels. So over Yeah. You know, 88% of Americans have one or more of those things going wrong for them, and they all kind of interconnect, right?

Different outcomes, different, um, uh, chronic illnesses can develop because of those things if left untreated. But one of those that we, uh, think is really important to start tracking and kind of kind of give you insights as to where you are is. That glucose level and understanding, um, the healthful levels, or maybe the not so helpful ways or glucose is fluctuating throughout the day.

So it's, it's a lot of people. And I think when it gets closer to sleep, you know, if you are somebody who feels like, Hey, I'm, I'm doing all the tips and tricks, right. I I've. Reduce my screen time. I've trying to, you know, get to bed at a certain time, all of those kinds of things. And you can't really figure out why I'm waking up in the night.

I'm not able to get that restful sleep. This might be something that's worth looking into for you, especially if you're feeling like your efforts are not resulting in the outcomes that you are hoping for. Yes, so well said. So if I heard you correctly, and that's that's some of the numbers that I've also heard to around 88% of us, uh, dealing with some sort of metabolic dysfunction, some element of that list that you helped us be illuminated around.

And so. A big swath of us dealing with some problems in this area. So some people might say, okay, well, fine. So I'm dealing with this. How would CGM, how would having a CGM help? What does this even mean? Is it going to hurt? What does this look like? If you can just kind of share a little bit about that process to demystify.

Yeah, totally. And, um, you know, it's a, it's a big question. A lot of the questions we get are like, well, I'm not diabetic, right? A lot of people hear about the idea that a CGM or a continuous glucose monitor is for diabetes. And that is the way it started. That's where it started with, um, providing continuous glucose monitoring, right.

On a, either a receiver or your phone, you know, for us, it goes right to your phone. You can see how your glucose is changing throughout the day. Um, and. That is something that we are trying to bring to more people because of the fact that we believe that metabolic health is a spectrum, right? When you go to the doctors and you get your blood tested or you get your A1C, um, things like that, these are some, like, lab markers that are useful for understanding basically the average amount of sugar that's in your blood, uh, for the past three months or so, and A1C is, right?

Um, and then you can obviously get cholesterol tests, you can get all those, all those tests that I mentioned. Um, in the markers of metabolic health, blood pressure, things like that. So you go to the doctor and you get this marker and they might say, it's all good. You're healthy, right? That's a snapshot in time.

And you go, great, I'm healthy. And then you go back to the doctor a year later, two years later, and they go, Oh, just to let you know, you have pre diabetes. And you're like, I had no idea. How was I supposed to know this was happening? How? What's going on? What has happened? And suddenly you're fighting against something that you could have been preventing the whole time, right?

You're trying to undo this damage and it's not to say it can't be undone, but it's really helpful if you have that insight into your body so that you can start to protect and prevent, um, Poor outcomes for your health, right? We all want to have long lives and not just long lives, but long, healthy lives, lives where we're doing the things that we want to do.

We're enjoying the life that we want to enjoy and not have the end of our lives or the middle of our lives be plagued by chronic conditions. So that's, um, I think the really important thing about CGM use, or the really cool thing about CGM use, is it helps you orient yourself on the spectrum. And then it also helps you target exactly where your health efforts may be helping you or hurting you, right?

So you can see like, hey, I'm actually doing great with my diet. Like maybe that's something that I've been trying to fix, but it didn't really need fixing. But wow, can I see that my exercise is really causing some problems for me or my lack thereof or something. So it helps you really. Pinpoint what needs work rather than just trying to throw everything in the wall at the wall and feeling frustrated again when you're not getting those, those results.

Hmm, well said. Okay, so then if people are listening and saying, Oh, all right, I haven't used a CGM or maybe I've used a long time ago, want to bring this in. Is there a recommendation for the length of time that someone should use this? What are they looking at? Because one of the things I really like about Your company as well is it's one of the more affordable options on the market, which is fantastic just to help democratize this a bit more.

And it's there's an international leaning too. So I have different clients that are, you know, not just in the United States. And so that helps to support getting this out to more people. So for someone listening and said, okay, I want to test this out. What are they, what should they be thinking? How should they be thinking about this?

The length of time, how to navigate it. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so that's a great question. And first and foremost, a CGM, um, you put in the back of your arm, typically it sits right on the back of your arm, um, and it lasts for 14 days. So that's going to be 14 days of continuous, you're going to see what your glucose does every, every hour of the day, right?

Um, it reads at five minute intervals, but you get a smooth sort of graph line where you'll see. Going up, going down, what's happening, no matter what. So that's how that works. Um, we do it or the way we've set it up is sort of in this, um, package where you get two sensors and you have app access across this time.

And basically what we are looking to do is really drive behavior change, right? It's, it's really cool to have data. It's cool to have cool, funky data visualizations, but if you don't know what to do with that data, right, you're looking at a pretty picture. So, um. The way we sort of set it up or recommend to users, and some people want to do it all the time, they love it and great, right?

Um, is that you wear your first sensor. It's kind of can be this really incredible, um, aha light bulb moment for people. And we'll talk more about that as well, kind of like my own experience with that. Um, but you wear your sensor, uh, for 14 days, you get all this information and we offer. Uh, in app guidance to provide you with steps or support you in the steps towards where what you need to pinpoint for your health, right?

Whether it's your diet, whether it's whatever. And so you're then going to put those things into practice. And then after some time, you know, maybe a couple weeks of, hey, I started trying fasting, right? Or, hey, I tried this new, uh, meal timing, or I'm trying this new, um, you know, these glucose friendly meals, or I'm exercising.

And then let's benchmark it again. Right with another sensor, you're going to get more data of sort of how you've progressed and then more learnings, right? So we sort of have these like, uh, But the sensor periods where you're where you're gathering all this data, you're understanding what's going on in your body, and then you're taking the learnings and applying them during your practice period when you aren't wearing a sensor.

Uh, and then kind of continuing to benchmark. So we want it to be something that, you know, you don't have to wear all the time if you don't want to, but it's continuously helping you to make progress towards your health goals, make progress towards better sleep. Oh, that's awesome. Okay. So you mentioned a real quick, I couldn't help, but hearing that you had your own insights with the CGM, I wonder if you could share just a little bit about that to help make it like tangible and real for people to like, what might come out if they were to put this on.

Yeah, totally. So, um, again, like I said, I think just the first time you're putting on a CGM, you're seeing into your own body, right? You're seeing things that you've never seen before, right? Again, blood tests to the doctor, this, you know, a CGM will put that to shame. Uh, and it's just amazing what your blood glucose does throughout the day.

And are, we have these sort of four pillars that we talk about a lot and sort of the four areas that we Talk about as being under your control, right? There's, there's things that are going to affect your blood sugar that are outside of, um, your control, right? It might be hereditary. It might be chronic illness that you, you know, preexisting conditions, certain conditions like, you know, PCOS, things like that can, or inflammatory conditions can affect your glucose.

Obviously not anyone's fault, but there are things that are under your control. And those are diet. Exercise sleep and stress. So those are kind of our four pillars. Um, and all of those are kind of the things that glucose can affect and can affect your glucose. Right? So personally, um, I am somebody who, you know, I'm a, I'm a sleep girly hard.

Like I need my sleep. I love it. Uh, you know, and I like to think I have a pretty good sleep routine. Um, but you know, on the weekends, uh, yeah. When you're, when you're out of your routine, maybe a little bit, I was finding that I was getting, I was getting the most sleep, quote unquote, right? I was spending the most time asleep or I was in bed for the most time, but I was getting my worst sleep, right?

I was exhausted on weekends. I didn't understand why I wasn't staying up late. I wasn't going out and, you know, drinking alcohol, things like that. And, you know, I, my diet's pretty good, all those kinds of things. I'm focused on that. Couldn't really figure it out was trying all these types of things to get my sleep in order and just would get to Monday and be like, I feel like I was up the whole weekend.

Right. And, and I was not, um, so, uh, starting with Veri wearing a CGM, really just incredible insights and realizing that. Eating for me later on on weekend nights, right, just eating later in the evening compared to my, you know, usual, uh, 7 p. m. dinner going to bed, you know, two plus hours later, uh, eating later and eating less healthy foods, maybe meals that didn't agree with me as much meals that were heavier, things like that was really affecting my uh,

Looking at my, uh, glucose the next morning and seeing, oh my gosh, I was on a rollercoaster, right? My, I went to sleep. My glucose was normal. So I'm thinking I'm all great. As the night goes on, my glucose starts to rise. I'm tossing and turning. I'm waking up feeling like I'm having nightmares. Everything's, you know, kind of like shaky things like that.

My glucose was crashing and then sometimes your body can overcompensate when you have a crash. We call this the glucose rollercoaster, right? So you're kind of doing this like up and down. And it really, um, it spikes your heart rate. It spikes your cortisol. It's spiking all these, um, fight or flight responses in your body.

And obviously like your body is like, you got to wake up, right? Like something's going on. So, uh, it can really, it can really disrupt your sleep. Um, and that was something that was really eyeopening for me. Like, Hey, I got to get my weekends together and really like. Then you can experiment again. I'm not just, okay, I got to fix my weekends, but it's okay.

Well, what happens if I move that meal one hour earlier? What happens if I have one less slice of pizza, right? It's, it's not about eliminating and becoming really stringent and making sure that, Oh, I don't do anything out of line. It's finding what works best for your body so that you can live a healthy life, but also do the things that you enjoy.

And so that was kind of. A big one for me, but for other people, you know, might be stress that's affecting their sleep and this can still you can still have that elucidative moment of Okay, here's how these habits in my life are affecting my overnight, right? And glucose is sort of that key in between.

Amazing. And so for the person listening that suspects that maybe that might be happening for them, how long of a process, I know this is just your personal experience, but I think it can be helpful for people of like, what are we talking about here? Does it mean like. You know, a long process, like ongoing.

Do I need supplements? Do I need to change my whole dietary routine? Like, what are we looking at? Of course, this is individualistic and there's bio individuality and there's lots of things at play, but what did you see for yourself? Yeah, so I think, I think the thing that can be challenging for people in general is you suspect there's a problem, right?

And you want to fix it and you're trying to fix it. And. You're not really sure if it's working. And what I really liked about using a CGM is you can actually see, and especially because with, with the CGM and the glucose data, right, you can see the direct, the direct outcome of what you are changing, right?

So it's like, you get to be like a little bit of science fair with your own body, right? Okay. I'm going to move my meal an hour earlier. Does that make any difference? Okay. It might not, maybe it does make a huge difference. And I'm. All good, you know, um, usually, you know, with, with science experiments, we like to say, try to hold other things constant, try to make the same change repeatedly and see how things go, right?

So two weeks of sensor time is really great. Um, Personally, I think if you are looking at a bunch of things in your life, right? If you're like, well, I want to look at my diet and my sleep, or maybe you go like, wow, my exercise timing is, is really affecting my glucose overnight. Maybe you want to experiment a little bit with different timing.

So, uh, it depends on kind of where you're at already with your health journey. It might depend on how much work, uh, Or how much change you want to make in your life, um, and, and what you feel like you're learning, you know, we, we sort of say, take it one pillar at a time, right? You might focus on diet a little bit first.

And granted, if you're focused on one of these things, you're probably going to move the needle elsewhere, right? If your diet's getting better, your sleep's probably going to get better because your glucose is getting better. Or if your exercise, you know, the movement you're doing is improving, same. These things are all sort of interconnected, right?

You want to keep, keep all those, uh, you know, balls in the air. So, um, I think that it can be helpful to wear a sensor. Um, it can be helpful to wear a couple of sensors. You know, I think that we are also people who are very, um, we're slow and steady wins the race, right? This isn't a forever commitment, but this is also, you know, it's, we don't want to be, um, the fad diets are fad diets because they don't stick.

Right. So I think, uh, wearing a sensor, taking some time wearing another sensor. I think people usually like to wear, like, you know, Six months worth of worth of sensors. And when I say six months, that's four sensors, right? So that's kind of like the way our, um The way our timeline is, but again, we have this, um, where we have this guidance and app, which is, is going to guide you out for a year of sensor use.

And then you can kind of benchmark more or less if you want to from there. Okay. So when you say four sensors, so you mean what part of your suggestion is to kind of give it some time, like a, like you wear it. It's not just like, okay, it's done. And then you put on another one. It's not. Yeah, so that's our, that's our, um, the way kind of our, our, uh, our program goes is, or the way that like we recommend it to people is do your sensor, you practice some of these new habits you learn, right?

Maybe I learned, like I said, like, oh, I need to. You know, eat my meals earlier. I need to do this. And then it's why I do that, right? You're getting your reps in, you're building these new habits, and then you benchmark again with your sensor and you go, great. That actually decreased my glucose variability, uh, you know, variability, meaning how, how much your glucose is going up and down in a day.

We want to keep that pretty tight. Um, And I go, great, but I'm still seeing that, you know, I am, I'm always having increased glucose after my breakfast. So what can I do there? Right. And so you're kind of, again, our goal is lasting behavior change rather than just like, I got a cool glucose graph and, and keeping the line flat.

Right. So really learning about your body, tapping into your own bio individuality and Making sure that the things you're doing are serving you, right? The health, the health sort of steps that you're taking are serving your unique body rather than just, you know, I'm following this diet plan because. An influencer said it would make me skinny or whatever it is, right?

That's usually not the best outcomes. Uh, but we're we're drawn to it. You know, that's that's how how people work so Love that and one of the things I love that you mentioned too is not just getting data for data's sake and not just having the pretty charts What are some of the reasons why? Having a platform that's being like what are some of the reasons why we're even building platforms like this?

Like so what can people do on very? That they can't do, you know, just by getting the pure data in. So that behavioral piece, is it like the logging the food, noticing the tag a lot? Like what, what do you see people doing that are really successful in there on the app and how are they using it? Yeah. So again, it's, it's I think that, um, you know, again, data is we talk a lot about inputs and outputs, right?

And output is a result of something, right? It's, it's, you know, it might be the good sleep that you want. And if you're trying to get those, that good sleep, it's like, okay, but what do I need to do to achieve that? Right? What are the things that I'm doing? My inputs, right? And so what we've designed in the app, what we're calling the Veri method, right?

Um, is focusing on your inputs, right? So we're, we're guiding users to make these subtle changes in their diet and lifestyle. We allow you to track, uh, your food when you're eating, right? That the timing of when you're eating, um, you can track events like, Hey, I was traveling today. Hey, I took a nap. Hey, I was feeling really stressed.

Hey, all of these kinds of things. Um, exercise, you know, sauna session. Kind of anything that's happening to your physical, physical body, right, that you're taking part in, um, and we are giving, so rather than just seeing that graph too, you will get your glucose graph, but you also are getting these simple scores, um, so you get a meal score, you're getting a daily score, so there's far more context around, um, Um, Once you do see these outputs right in the form of your glucose and your sleep data, and this leads to more sustainable behavior change, which is sort of our, our ultimate goal, right?

So getting these scores, you can say, Hey, this was a meal that scored, you know, it's a zero, sorry, 1 to 10 score. This meal scored an eight. This is a really great meal for me. Or like, wow, I thought this was kind of a healthy meal, but it scored a five. And why, why did that happen, right? Maybe it was this, and I can, I can switch out that ingredient, right?

And then again, there's this in app guidance that's sort of pointing you towards. Um, the knowledge, the education that's gonna say, Hey, here's how you can make those ingredients swaps, right? Or here's a great, uh, grocery list that might be more glucose friendly, or here's how you can, you know, uh, exercise so that you are more, um, glucose tolerant or insulin sensitive, right?

And, uh, kind of points you toward those things. So you're not totally flying blind, right? Um, but the data is not just overwhelming and being like, Okay. Again. Great. That looks nice. But how is this? How is this helping me? Yeah, absolutely. I'm wondering if you can also share a little bit specifically too with the sleep.

You know, we talk about kind of this bi directional relationship with our sleep and glucose and some of the results that we get. And I think some people might not really get the tangible real world effects of what happens even on their poor night of sleep and how they're going to wake up and might see different things.

Thank you. Change or changes on their kind of glucose and their reactivity and how sensitive things are the following day So I'm wondering if you can kind of paint a picture for what that can look like Yeah, absolutely. I uh, that's a that's a great question as well because that was sort of the second half of of uh, What I was experiencing right you sure wake up after a night of poor sleep, right?

This this might be like I was uh, you know, maybe you just stayed up too late Maybe whatever and and even if you did, you know stay up too late or you had a bad meal you know your glucose is Probably going to be less stable, right? And overnight when you sleep, everything sort of slows down, right? Your body's recharging your, um, utilization of glucose for your body goes down, your heart rate goes down, all of these kinds of things so that your body can recover for the next day.

When you're actually using all this energy, all of those kinds of things. Um, when obviously when you're not sleeping well, when you're not getting that restful sleep. Um, whether it's because of glucose, what have you, uh, your body's not recharging properly. So you wake up the next day, you feel tired, right?

And we're all like, okay, you grab the coffee, you grab whatever, but really your body is then trying to help you get through that day, uh, whether you know it or not by craving, uh, things that are less healthy, right? It wants simple sugars. It wants simple carbohydrates. It wants that candy bar, that pop tart or that.

Soda, that is very easy carbohydrates for your body to get because your body is trying to stay awake. If you can't go to sleep, they're like, okay, well, we got to stay awake. Let's get those, those easy calories, right? And it may feel good in the moment. It may keep you awake in the moment, but that is then sending you on that glucose rollercoaster.

And because your body, uh, again, didn't get what it needed overnight, your glucose response, okay. Is is more sensitive, right? Your glucose, you might eat a meal that you typically eat and your glucose goes way higher than it, than it normally would or something like that, even if you're trying to try to eat healthfully after a night of poor sleep.

And so, you know, typically this is okay. I'm exhausted. I'm just trying to get through the day and then you get to the end of the day and you're kind of stuck in this same spot, right. Of like. Oh, I just got a, I'm tired. I ate my dinner and maybe it's not as healthy and, and you're going back into another night of maybe not as great sleep.

You know, this isn't to say that you're never going to get great sleep again, but it puts you in what we call this negative feedback loop, right? So you're kind of in this cyclic pattern of like, Okay, you know, ate poorly, got a bad night's sleep, ate poorly because I got a bad night's sleep, got a bad night's sleep because I ate poorly and down the line.

And so what we're trying to do with the Veri method and what we've seen be successful is sort of this being the connection between your glucose and your sleep and disrupting this negative feedback loop and kind of understanding where you can go in with your scalpel. Fix the issue, get to the root of the problem, and put yourself into that positive feedback loop, which is, I eat my dinner by this time, and I go to bed by that time, and by spacing my meal out, or by eating a lower portion size, you know, I, I'm not waking up in the night, and then I am, uh, able to get through my day tomorrow, and I don't need the sixth cup of coffee, and the candy bar, and the things like that, and so that can help Really disrupt this cycle that you're in and help you again take an intentional approach to the disruption of the cycle rather than just Okay.

I really got to sleep all tonight or okay. I really got to, you know, uh, make sure that I'm not getting any screen time or making sure, and you know, all those things can help and are great. And, and, you know, we're, like I said, supplements, things like that might, might work great for you, but, um, this can really help you understand.

Where your efforts are wasted or maybe where you know, hey, I need I actually need a little more practice here I should be trying something else here. Sure. So well said one question I have for you Is that so many people will talk about right before bed? Taking certain things to stabilize glucose throughout the course of the night So the almond butter, the MCT oil, certain things that they might be able to bring in to help them coast throughout the course of the night.

Do you or Veri have any take on that or kind of more of a test for yourself? Or do you think of that as kind of a band aid while you're figuring out what's going on with the instability of your glucose, that roller coaster you're pointing to? How do you think about that? Because we get a lot of questions on well, Help, uh, uh, do, should I take something before?

Yeah, I do. Yeah. And I guess, I guess the answer to that is, um, first and foremost, like I said, I know I, I'm broken recording here, but it's, it's really helpful to find something that that works for you. And that might be a great thing for me to do, but maybe not for you and. The reason that people say like, like you said, MCT oil, almond butter, something like that is there's fat in that, right?

So when you pair your glucose or your carbs, right, all carbs are broken down into glucose. When you pair it with fat, it slows the body's absorption of. Glucose and your bloodstream. So you don't see that really steep spike on your glucose graph or something like that. So your body is absorbing the glucose more slowly.

It can keep you more steady throughout the night and you might not see as much of a, you know, kind of roller coaster with, with the glucose, which is great. Um, and that can be super helpful, but you know, again, if you are not getting to the real root of the problem, right, which might be Yeah, Like I said, your stress, it might be your exercise timing.

It might be, you know, the, the actual dinner that you ate, um, your body still needs to, to deal with that problem, right? You still need to kind of like fix, fix that issue. And so, yeah, maybe, maybe you eat a snack with a little fat in it before bed, but if you've already, you know, uh, eaten all the cotton candy or at the baseball game, right, that's still a ton of sugar for the fat to fight with.

Right. So your body is going to like, it might hold off a glucose spike or something like that. Uh, but it's still, you're still going to see it, right? Your body still needs to do something with all of that carbohydrate. So I think that's something that's like a great, a perfect example of what a CGM can be insightful for, right?

You, you have this ritual and you might go, okay, I do this every night. I have my MCT all great, great, great, great. Uh, you might see that. Hey, something like that is super helpful when I, you know, have a meal that's that's a little heavier, maybe not as healthy. Maybe that really works well with your biochemistry.

Just having that little fat snack before you go to bed and that works. Um, and maybe when you skip it, you're like, well, I was up all night. Um, and for some people it's, it's gonna work less. Um, and so that's like a really great, you know, we really encourage people, like I said, to do those little sort of experiments to hold things constant, right?

Like I'm going to do my MCT all three nights in a row, see how my glucose responded. And then maybe tomorrow I'll skip it. And I have a similar dinner and whatever, and say like. Oh, hey, my glucose was really the same and I don't need to buy this anymore. Maybe, wow, this is like a thing that really, really works for me.

So it makes sense physiologically why a little snack or like a little fat bomb or whatever it is works, uh, before bed. And some people, some people really need that. But you might, you might figure out that like. I can skip it. And you know, that's that's great, too. So, uh, yeah, again, finding finding the things that work kind of just getting rid of the extras that maybe aren't as necessary.

Absolutely. I think in this kind of precision medicine approach of where we're going, where we're headed, where you know, Individuals are kind of empowered by understanding what's happening on the ground for them with their numbers and being empowered to experiment really, really important. And we heard a little bit about some of your story with the CGM yourself.

So with every person that we do bring on the podcast, we do ask them four questions. So I'm excited to learn more about. How you're managing your sleep and how, you know, CGM may kind of work into all that. So the first question that we ask everyone is what does your nightly routine look like? And I'm curious if that has also included your awareness of your glucose roller coaster or lack thereof.

So what might we see with your nightly routine? Yeah. Uh, great question. Um, again, I, you know, I, for me, it kind of starts at, starts at dinner. Um, not to make it a huge long thing, but like I said, bedtime is, uh, very important to me. So, uh, I try to have a consistent bedtime, but also dinner time for me works best to do, um, some carbs, uh, some healthy fats, some protein, right.

Kind of. You know, you get some glucose, you don't need a ton, but also, uh, can give you balance throughout the night. Um, I sometimes will take a walk after dinner. Um, low intensity exercise can be really great for keeping your glucose sort of stable, right? Um, or if you do have a dinner that has a little more carbs in it, right, that might be something that That is, is helpful for kind of curbing that spike.

Um, so that can be really helpful. Um, and then, you know, I am a very like nine 30 ish bedtime kind of person. Right. And, and that's what I stick to and that's what I know works for me. So, you know, I mean, around eight 30, I, I start winding down. I'm also really big on the, um, sort of room atmosphere as far as like, gotta be dark, gotta be 65 degrees.

That's. That's what works for me big time. And, you know, it's, it's helpful to see in the morning, um, how your glucose, uh, and, and again, pairing with aura ring can, uh, can, how your glucose and your sleep stages and your heart rate all looked throughout the night, all in one place, all in one app and kind of understand how, Hey, if I deviated from this, how much did this affect me?

Or if I do feel like I didn't get enough sleep, I can kind of like look back and reflect on my day and be kind of like, okay, like what was the thing that, that set it off? Right. So. So yeah, that's kind of my, you know, yeah, I love that. Fantastic. And then what might we see as your morning sleep routine? And we make the argument that how you start your day could impact your sleep results at night.

So anything noteworthy there? Totally. Totally. Um, and I definitely agree with that idea of morning, right? It impacts your night and it's, it's all, it's all connected. But, uh, I am also an early riser. Uh, I try to get up 536. I will say I am, uh, uh, this is, this is one I probably need to work on, but I, I am a double alarmer just to.

Right? But then I am a get up, uh, read a little bit, have my coffee and I'm a morning exerciser. And that for me too, it's finding out what works for you. But that for me really helps my glucose variability throughout the day. Helps me feel awake and refreshed. Um, you know, especially get in the summertime, getting some exercise outside, seeing that morning morning light is, is feel ready to go.

Amazing. Love that. Okay. And then what might we see kind of visually on your nightstand or proverbial nightstand if you're traveling or kind of ambience, apps, gadgets, etc. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like I said, I Definitely cold, dark. That's, you know, make it like a cave. That's, that's what I need. Um, so that's really important.

Um, if there is light, I do have a, a sleep mask. Um, so I'm big on that. If, you know, I'm in a place where like, Hey, this is not going to be a dark room. I think that's always a good thing to have on hand. Um, I've got my CGM and now with our aura integration, um, and our, our sleep insights feature, I. I've always worn an aura ring, but it's awesome to like really put those two together.

So that's, uh, we've talked about that a little bit, but it's a partnership where we're super excited about. Um, and so again, I can see, uh, all right, let's look at my sleep stages. Let's look at what my glucose was doing. Throughout these sleep stages, you know, I can just sort of check it, check things out, keep an eye on things.

Or if I know that, like, I have something coming up, right, or if I'm traveling or whatever, I can kind of be like, all right, how can I, like I said, take some preventative action or how can I manage this while I'm in that sort of, um, situation? I, you know, used to be somebody who used melatonin nightly, used it religiously.

Again, that might work for you, but. Another one of those things that I kind of found like, hey, like if I adjust these other things, I don't need to use this as much and I'm getting that restful sleep and I'm feeling tired at my appropriate bedtime when I'm understanding the way and managing my glucose appropriately.

So that was something that I was also able to get rid of. And again, no shade to melatonin. Like, yeah, that's you do your thing, you know, all about what works best for you. But, uh, yeah, so. Love that. So well said. And the last question that we ask everyone is what would you say so far has made the biggest change to your sleep game or maybe said another way, biggest aha moment and managing your sleep definitely just tapping into your own body.

So again, whether it's a wearable, whether it's, you know, I mean, it might be a cgm for you. It might be annoying for you. It might be something else. Like, I think getting information for your from your own body is Super, super important because then you know, it works for you. You're not following some rote program.

I think it can be really illuminating. Um, and I also think like super unsexy, but consistency man is key. You know, it's, it's really, like I said, the, the bedtime for me, the sameness of the routine, it's, it is boring, but. Man, does it work? You know, so I think, uh, that's a big like, you know, as you get older, you're like, okay, we're sticking to this, you know, and, and you do what you can, you know, I get it.

Life gets in the way. But, um, consistency helps you become be adaptable for those times when you, you know, you didn't get the sleep you wanted or you didn't, uh, you traveled or what have you. So Oh, so wise. I think so. We'll get that. And you know, uh, we talk about sleep being a skill and we, you know, certainly are like to share some of the latest and greatest in the tech space and the gadgets and the supplements and the whatever.

But half the time, the big message is exactly what you just said, that consistency is what will carry the day. I have yet to see a supplement that can outshine consistency, you know, a magic elixir or whatever. It just doesn't have, if you're not getting those foundational elements in place, good luck. So really appreciate that.

I know to your point, it's like the least sexy thing. No one wants to hear that, but it's the truth. So, so important. Um, and it takes that discipline to make that work in your life instead of being like a nice idea, you know, to actually have that be in the space. And I love what you said too about with that kind of foundation, then when there are the times when life will happen, we're not saying be robots, but things will come up.

but that you're able to bounce back because of that kind of foundational piece that you've had in place. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, I, I definitely think wearables, supplements, gadgets, apps, like all give you right there. They give you the insights. You know, we always refer to various like your metabolic health compass, right?

It's going to point you in the right direction. But like. You know, you're there at the end of the day, you got to take the steps on the journey. You gotta, you know, be the one put one foot in front of the other. So yeah, you know, we're, we're, I think it's really important to, to find what works for you to listen to your own body and kind of get, get back in touch with that.

And yeah, the, the consistency, hopefully we can make it sexy someday, you know? Yes, exactly. That's so good. Well, I certainly think that the. Pairing. So a lot of people that are listening to this podcast are tracking in some way, shape, or form their sleep, exploring, whoop, biostrap, apple, Fitbit, et cetera, whatever.

And I think that if you're going to be tracking to pair, In some way, shape, or form, the tracking of your glucose, it can just be so game changing across the board for your sleep, for your health, for your mental health, for so many things. So I just so appreciate that you all are making this more available with more ease, not like a wildly expensive thing.

Uh, you know, just lots of ways that I think it can reach more people. So. To that point, how can people learn more about Vari and what you all are doing and the information that you're putting out? Yeah, absolutely. So we have an awesome blog which is Vari. co learn and you can find all kinds of awesome metabolic health content on there.

Stuff about sleep, stuff about CGMs, exercise, diet, all of those kinds of things. You can follow us on Instagram at Vari, stable V E R I. stable. You can find us on LinkedIn. Uh, and we have a newsletter where, you know, we kind of synthesize content for you as well that you can, can sign up for on our website.

So yeah. Amazing. And you all have the, um, circle piece to that community. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, if you join, Veri, that's, thank you so much for bringing that up. If you join Veri, and you have a membership of CGMs, we actually have a closed community for all of our users that has really important part of behavior change, um, is being able to connect with others who are on a similar health journey.

So yeah, you can connect with other Veri users. There's groups for different, you know, Hey, I'm looking to lose weight, or Hey, I'm an athlete, or Hey, I'm on, you know, I'm doing a. keto diet or something like that. So you can talk with all kinds of people, ask questions, you know, we've got our own teammates, Veri team members in there, but also just fellow users.

So it's a really cool place to learn, collab, get feedback, all that kind of stuff as well. Yeah, amazing. So good. And since you are now our Sponsor to get out this word more clearly that your sleep and glucose are such a huge, huge connected element. You have set us up with for our sleepy community, haha, a code, which I'm just pulling it up now.

It's V S M. Dash sleep is a skill all caps. So vsm dash sleep is a skill all caps. So thank you for that I know it gives a decent little um discount for people if they do want to check this out Again, it doesn't have to be something that you're anticipating. That's like a forever thing Some people do wear these for a very long time But you know, even if the world could have even 14 days i'll take but yeah Just I feel like one of the things that I see for people and for myself is that begins to dismantle the relationship that you have with the things that you're putting on your plate and how you're thinking about instead of just the short term effects of the food choices that we're making, there begins to be this like long term effect that we can start to anticipate and have some kind of reliability around, but also then the nuances of paying attention because I think sometimes people say, well, all this tech, do we really need all this to just listen to your body intuitive eating?

There is that, but there's also in a busy, fast paced world with lots of variability, I think it helps us to actually have this relationship to listen to our body more. For instance, I just got sick recently and the, I had more variability with my glucose because of that sickness. I was at altitude a little bit before that, and then there was more variability because of that altitude.

There's a stretch when I was traveling, hopping over time zones, so less sleep, more variability. So I'm saying that's not to, you know, have people be like, oh my god, it's like a math equation to figure out how to eat well, but instead to inspire some intrigue and interest into how complex our bodies are and It is not necessarily as cut and dry as we might think of just, Oh, eat intuitively.

There's a lot that we can learn and have some respect for all of the different kind of layers that might be at play. So I think you all facilitate that really nicely. No, absolutely. I'm, I'm so glad you said that because I do think that like, right. The signal is there from our bodies, but like you said, in this fast paced world in this, you know, we maybe have less.

Less autonomy, less agency with like just responsibility, lives, all those kinds of things, the stress, whatever. And it can actually be helped to be like, look. Let's winnow it down to this signal, what's happening. And, you know, people are looking for reasons as to why they're feeling this way. Right. Like I eat while I exercise.

I can't figure out why I'm exhausted every day. Or I can't figure out why, you know, and again, you go to the doctor, you whatever, and they're like, you're good, get out of here. So it's can be helpful to really like look inside, like literally, um, and, and get a little feedback and kind of, again, have this, have this directional Uh, compass or or a metric that helps you kind of, you know, I know it sounds cheesy, but like kind of get back to you get back to what you actually need and and kind of cut away the rest of the noise.

Absolutely. Uh, 100%. The last thing I'll also share for people, just another area for them to take a look at is we're often speaking a ton about circadian rhythm and circadian rhythm and trainment and how I wholeheartedly believe that in the future we'll see a lot more around our circadian rhythm health and ways that we can kind of set up our lives in alignment with that.

One of those pieces that I think is really fascinating with when you're wearing a continuous glucose monitor is the awareness that you can eat a certain type of food at 8 a. m. and get a whole different type of response at 8 p. m. because of this circadian component. So that would just be one other thing that I would like to put in there for people to, if they are going to test something like this out to also get curious around just how we're able to handle things.

differently and how there really is this kind of circadian design that will show up in your results as well. Yeah, absolutely. That's something we have blogs on that. I mean, again, that could be a whole nother episode, right? That's okay. I'm talking to you and I'm like, Oh, I need to come back. Totally. We might have to do that part too.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, there's just so much to talk about with this. And, and, and again, like you said, not to sound overwhelming, but just like, yeah. Again, it's not just about, Oh, glucose going up and down or whatever people have, you know, solved, solved stress problems with this, right. The way that they've a lot of like a mood and, and feeling related things, right.

It has been really eyeopening for people. So yeah, it's, we really encourage getting curious. It's tapping in, um, you know, circadian rhythms, huge, huge, but, uh, yeah, so I'm, I'm with you. It's just super exciting. I love that you said that too. The stress piece. I just saw that recently. I was on the heels of recovering from getting sick, but still a little funky.

I mean, I had to give a big, uh, live talk. And I had this whole upswing in glucose and it wasn't even like, Oh, that's the food I had. It wasn't that no, literally just the cortisol of like, let's do this thing on the heels of just sort of not the best overall immune situation. So you can really, really see.

And it was so helpful for me because it was just showing like, okay, my body's still dealing with some things. And that stress response was. Real is a tangible thing to point to. And it did have me prioritize self care and health and wellbeing to a level that I might not have without that kind of awareness.

So just many, many things that I hope people can get curious and interested around to see what's going on for themselves and know that it's dynamic. I mean, it can look very different based on some of those variables. So really, really cool. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. It really means a lot.

Um, and I love your personal passion too, and that you're bringing this. into your own life. And yes, maybe we'll have to do a part two down the road. Yeah, would absolutely love that. Thank you so, so much for having me. So fun to talk to you. I love your, uh, podcast and yeah, lifelong sleeper here. Um, I, I, it's so nice to, um, so nice to, to really dial into that kind of stuff because again, I think it's taken for granted and, and where we're at today, you know, it.

Should not be. So thank you so much for having us. We so much appreciate it. Oh, thank you. That's fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. You've been listening to the sleep as a skill podcast, the number one podcast sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out something that I call Molly's Monday obsessions containing everything that I'm obsessing over in the world of sleep.

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