130: Biohacker Babes (Lauren Sambataro & Renee Belz): Top Sleep Tips From The Biohacker Babes

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie McGlocklin and I own a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper.

Let's jump into your dose of practical sleep training.

Welcome to the. Sleep is a skill podcast. Some dear friends of mine, the biohacker babes that includes Lauren Sambataro and Renee Belz. Lauren and Renee grew up in a health driven family that prioritized the fundamentals of wellness and self care. Their father, Gene Sambataro, the original biohacker and pioneer of holistic dentistry and quick side note, he has been on the podcast.

Definitely recommend checking out that podcast where we go deeper into sleep apnea and certain things available that you can use to help support your sleep apnea or to get it diagnosed. Taught them the importance of individualization, experimentation from a very young age. Renee, a certified nutritional consultant and holistic lifestyle coach with a master's degree in nutrition, and Lauren, a Broadway performer, corrective exercise specialist and functional health coach, feel a strong passion and drive to not only share each of their journeys towards wellness, but their Strategy and motivation to discover their own bodies through the world of biohacking.

Their podcast, The Biohacker Babes, I had the opportunity to actually be on one of their episodes and highly suggest checking out their awesome podcast. Aims to create insight into the body's natural healing abilities, strengthen your intuition, and empower you with techniques and modalities to optimize your health and wellness.

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This is problematic because, as you all know by now, if you've been listening to this podcast or on our Sleep Obsessions newsletter, please sign up if you're not already signed up or are part of our programs. Sleep is strongly tied to our metabolic health and over time, poor sleep can contribute to the deterioration of metabolic health.

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And here's some good news. We've teamed up with good idea to offer you a special deal. So visit www. goodidea. com and use the code sleep 10 for a 10% discount on your first order. Now invest in better sleep and in turn. In a better, more energized life and welcome to the sleep is a skill podcast. This is a very exciting moment for me and I hope for the whole crew because we're finally getting to have my favorite people, the biohacker babes on this podcast to talk about the latest and greatest, just really new and noteworthy and out of the box ways to think about improving your sleep.

Sleep and these happen to be some of my favorite people on the planet. They're just amazing mission driven and they live there what they talk about. They actually practice those things and it's just really an honor to have you both on the podcast. So thank you so much. Thanks for having us. Yes, here.

Awesome. Yeah, exactly. And I know we've had a round tables, of course, so people might already be familiar with you all are following your podcast and all the things, but I'm really excited to have just this time to go in more deeply on how you all are working with the people that you work with and make such a difference in their lives around sleep and how you're thinking about this.

But I think before we even begin, it could serve us because people might hear. biohacker babes. One, like what is that? And two, what might be those misconceptions around even that titling before we dive in any further? Yeah, yeah. Should we redefine biohacking? We certainly can and yeah, thank you for saying that we were talking on the podcast before we hit record.

I just think there's been some fire in the community or some separation. I think there is definitely like a little bit of an echo chamber in the biohacking community and it hasn't quite assimilated into even the functional medicine space as a whole. And yeah, Uh, I think people have certain opinions about biohacking and that's fine because we can all have our different definitions But I think we're here to stand firm and say that biohacking is mainly a perspective about being curious about how to optimize our own Genetic health potential we all have you know A ceiling that can be raised higher and higher depending on what our behavioral nutrition lifestyle choices are from day to day And so biohacking which I think traditionally has been thought of as a data driven or device or technology Space, I think as much broader and holistic and its approach.

And so we're definitely going to get into how we work as practitioners, but I think nutrition, functional lab testing, and then all of the lifestyle and behavioral stuff that you talk about on your podcast already really fits into this. category of biohacking. So I think, um, just wanted to note that it's not just about the data and the devices.

If you do have a particular opinion about biohacking. Yes. No, I appreciate you standing in that because I think there has been some rumblings around just that term. And I'm similar to, to both of you in that. I think of it as standing as an opportunity for us to be reflective and be engaged in our own health and well being and really continue to look at this area, what it means to be healthy and experimentation and playing with different things, learning new concepts, that curiosity like you were speaking to, and it lends itself really nicely to sleep because we know sleep is dynamic throughout the entire course of our lives.

Many things will be ebbing and flowing and changing, and if you're not... you know, at the wheel of this topic and also advocating for yourself, finding people that are in this conversation of empowerment, it's really can be detrimental. So I think it's so, so important and I completely understand that, but I appreciate that you're kind of, uh, redefining that for people that might've given a new definition.

Yeah. I will just jump in real quick and say, I think there is kind of this push towards more like the health span and longevity discussion and the biohackers are going off on their own. So I would love to bridge that gap and have all of us move forward together. And Molly, you said the perfect word advocate.

And I think it was. Pony Robbins, maybe that said we should be the CEO of our own health. Yes. Right? Yeah. Your doctors, doctors are amazing. They're doing amazing work. Please go to them, ask the questions, get the labs, do all the things, but they're not going to follow you around 24 seven. And really tune into what is happening in your body.

Like, you were the only one that is with your body 24 7. Most likely, I would assume. Yes. Really being, being in charge of your own body. And you know, I've had a couple of family members recently go through some medical stuff and I'm watching how they kind of get tossed around. Yes. And like, I'm like, you, And when you're sick, it's hard to be your own advocate, right?

So even those people are then needing someone to advocate for them. Yeah. So I think while we are well enough to be in the level of let's optimize, we can do that ourselves. And then when we are sick, we actually need someone to kind of do that for us. A hundred percent advocacy. Yes, because especially in the realm of sleep.

So for anyone listening, assuming it's called the sleep is a skilled podcast, you're probably curious about sleep. turns out that what's likely if you are to go to your, you know, primary care doctor, unfortunately, systemically on average, the average doctor has around two hours of training in this area.

This thing we do a third of our lives and that's out of Harvard Medical. So, you know, some of the top of the top universities prioritize this area around two hours for our general practitioners. So if we are going to our experts and expecting them to guide us in this area of our health, unfortunately, we might be mistaken or things might be missed.

So it behooves us to educate ourselves and as long as the system kind of looks like this. So thank you for the work you're doing and helping to provide excitement and intrigue and making this like actually kind of fun. So with that, what I'd love to do is just hear from the two of you because you are Practitioners in this world in the field working with people and getting people results both subjectively and objectively and I want to just start with, you know, people are coming to you and complaining of sleep difficulties.

How do you think about this area of sleep? What are some of the ways that you support people in getting great sleep in your various fields? Where to begin? Yes, it's a big topic. I know. As you know, Molly, it's just such a massive puzzle. And it seems like the puzzle pieces get smaller and the amount of them just gets greater.

Yes. With the world that we live in right now. It's a toxic, stressful, modern lifestyle. And so there are larger and larger, larger puzzles. 10 pieces. Now they're 1000 pieces or maybe more. And so it's really just like starting with as much information as we can possibly gather. And so that's where, as a biohacker, the data quantification is really helpful, but also blood chemistry, which I find is very overlooked, especially in the functional space.

A lot of practitioners are jumping to just the fancy testing, which I think can be valuable. The hormone testing, the stool testing, genetic testing, great, but without your blood chemistry, We don't have like real boots on the ground information about what your physiology is, is presenting and how you're absorbing nutrients.

How is your day to day, like physiology actually functioning. So I think that's a hugely overlooked piece. And then we have to bring in the subjective data. People are just not even listening to their own bodies because we've taught been taught to not listen to our bodies. So we're jumping to, you know, the devices that are going to give us our HRV and sleep stats.

Well, how do you subjectively feel like what is your intuition telling you? And my mentor, my greatest teacher of all time, Paul Cech, said the number one variable for getting healthy is to be honest with yourself. It's like, how much can we learn by just... Having an honest conversation with our own body that you could come up with such a long list, but we look so much outside of ourselves.

We look to other healers, practitioners and experts, which is great because yes, we all have blind spots, but you need to talk to yourself too. And so. The simple answer is putting together the very large puzzle piece and then a holistic view. It's all of those things. It's the chronobiology, it's the organ clocks, it's your circadian rhythm, it's cortisol, it's all the functional testing, it's underlying stressors, that health, that list is just endlessly long, so I'll pause there.

Oh, I love that. Oh, so good. And I love the, um, being honest, like even when you just said that for myself, one of the areas I always tell for my one on ones, my cohorts is there's often areas as it relates to sleep that some of us, we have mastery, we're like, we're doing great. We kind of just got those things dialed in maybe for you.

It's the light timing, darkness time, you got the temperature, whatever. For me, the area that continues to be this lifelong opportunity is thought timing. So I talk about thought timing a lot. And so I love the honesty because the minute you said that I'm like, there's been so with lots of travel. I'm like just skewing off and doing way too many things going too late into the evening and So it's that being honest and that's what I love about sleep is an opportunity for us to continue to bring in a look and a mirror at our behaviors, our habits, and then bring ourselves back on track.

So I appreciate that. That was really, really helpful. And then Renee, how do you think about this when you have some of your clients coming through and struggling with sleep? Yeah, I mean, patients come to me primarily for. I would say for nutrition. They're looking at how do I clean up my diet? That's what I want to focus on.

But really that is just a small puzzle piece, right? What they're eating. And so I like to look at, you know, if they are having sleep issues, yeah. What are you eating? What time are you eating? All of that. How is that impacting your sleep? But then the other way, how is your poor sleep impacting when you're eating, what you're eating?

If you want to go to the gym, how you're feeling the next day. So it's like looking at this whole cycle of how the, the nutrition is feeding the sleep. The sleep is feeding the nutrition. It's how do we break that vicious cycle, right? And so I like to try and optimize the food first, just because that's more of my background.

How do we eat to then get a good night's sleep? And then that's where the magic happens. When they start sleeping better, we can see it's easier to control their eating, right? Their hunger, their cravings, their appetite, all of that changes. Um, But then also, yeah, the holistic approach. I mean, looking at why are they not sleeping if they have everything in check?

They're doing the nutrition, they're doing the sleep hygiene, they're exercising, right? Stealth infections, the heavy metals. And for me, I mean, this was a big, big part of my journey was, and actually circling back to something you said, Molly, about the doctors only getting two hours of training. Yeah. When I first had chronic fatigue syndrome in my 20s, I was sleeping 12 hours a night and my doctor Your labs are normal, you just need to sleep more.

Oh my gosh. That was the only advice they had. So that, like, led me down a really long path but ended up having, I mean, mercury toxicity, Epstein Barr virus. So I think really also diving deeper into the hidden stealth infections that are happening in these, in people's bodies. They have no idea. So it's like, yeah, you might think you're sleeping really well, but if your body is trying to detox all night, it's fighting off these things.

It's in a sympathetic state when it should be in a parasympathetic state. Um, and for me, I think one of the big reasons the mercury was such a problem was I was not sleeping enough for so many years. I mean, I was like a four to six hour night person Many years. Wow. Exposed to a lot of mercury. My glymphatic system was probably not getting enough time to work and I think the mercury built up into my system.

I mean, that's just one of my theories of what happens, but, um, I think there's sometimes we just need to dive deeper as to why someone's not sleeping. That would be my. I think I feel like the underlying stressors is just such a massive category and we could just talk about one popular topic, which we could, you know, rabbit hole into, which is melatonin, which a lot of people are just taking melatonin because somehow it became this sleep molecule, which is like your listeners know that's not the, not the case, but.

Melatonin opposes cortisol. So there is a light and dark element. But why are so many people feeling like they have to take melatonin? Well, melatonin is made in the gut. What is like the most common problem in our modern toxic world? Gut dysfunction. Everyone has gut dysfunction. We have leaky gut. We have these self pathogens.

We have fungal overgrowth, yeast overgrowth, dysbiosis. And so what happens when we have all of those things that depletes our natural production of melatonin? And so, yeah, we could take a, a sleep architecture timing approach and we certainly should because the better sleep that you get, more consistent sleep that you get, that's going to help heal your gut.

But it's also wrapped up into this vicious cycle of why am I not making melatonin? Is there a food approach? So do I need to do a food elimination diet? Do I need to find out food sensitivities? Should I use a blood glucose monitor? Wink wink. I think everyone should at some point in their life because it's fantastic.

It's a great tool. Yes. 100%. Like what are the food approaches? What are the behavioral circadian rhythm approaches? And then how can we also at the same time take the sleep approach? Because these things are all going to support one another. But I just find that's like a majorly we overlook the fact that it's made in the gut.

And if our gut is disrupted, we're not going to make melatonin. And then on the toxin side, herbicides, pesticides, heavy metals. They can calcify the pineal gland, so then you're also not going to produce melatonin. So what are all the environmental things that are coming into the body that are just naturally disrupting that process?

And then you you have a lot of people coming to you that are already taking melatonin. Let's have a conversation about why. Yeah. And there was a new study, I think, in the last year, maybe, about fluoride being linked to sleep disruption. Yes. Pattern disruption. Yeah. And again, because of the pineal gland. I mean, we know the fluoride is so toxic and, um, causing that circadian rhythm, I guess, offset and then sleep wake cycle offset.

But fluoride is... A huge one. I know. And of course you come from a long line of biohackers and your dad is an expert in the world of dentistry. And so I know you've, you both have a lot of training and education in that realm too, which is such a, you know, overlooked and forgotten piece, but particularly for sleep, dentists have stood as sort of our gateway and helping to sound the alarms when people are having airway obstructions or problems from the mouth.

And certainly you're. Speaking to one of the many that can disrupt sleep. So I hope that I'm not leaving people in a realm of, Oh my God, the puzzle is so big. Like you said, I love the analogy, the thousand piece puzzle. So to bring it back down to, so people can feel like, Oh my gosh, the guidance that I need.

And that's what I love about your podcast is you're helping to piece out these puzzle pieces and make things actionable. So. I guess what I'd be curious about is even just on a, to begin to start, what are some of the key tests that you do ensure that you like to, and I'm sure obviously I know it depends on the, on the person, but are there certain key things that you want to always make sure you have readouts on for anyone that you're working with specifically on helping to support sleep that you'd be curious about or in, uh, that they might want to consider getting?

Yeah, I think just a really great place to start is to just get your blood chemistry, which your physician should run and most of us should be getting it twice a year. Though I saw that majorly disrupted with COVID and the pandemic, people stopped going to the doctor and a lot of clients coming to me don't have any blood chemistry from the last two years.

But you just need to check in with your physician, like get back on track in that flow because that's standard blood chemistries, which just the labs when you get your blood drawn at your doctor. Uh, CBC, so complete blood count, comprehensive metabolic panel, which will have your minerals, your liver enzymes.

Uh, metabolic markers like glucose, A1C, hopefully some inflammatory markers, nutrients that really covers a lot of bases. The problem is with a lot of conventional doctors, they're looking at pretty wide ranges. I think most of us have heard this. Hopefully your listeners have. You can go to the doctor and get your test and they say, Oh, everything's normal.

Well, they're normal because the ranges are based on a pretty wide sick population. So what you want to do is take it to a functional practitioner or functional nutritionist that can look at it through a slightly. Uh, more narrow perspective and not because we're trying to nitpick and find an issue.

That's not like I'm not trying to find a problem, but we can start to see the puzzle pieces more clearly if we just have more information. So it gives us more colors on the color palette to work with. So we can see, you know, for example, if you're getting having sleep issues, maybe that's coming up in your glucose data.

Just for example, we could see in your blood chemistry, maybe you're dehydrated. Maybe you're not getting enough B vitamins. I see that's so common. Maybe your digestive enzymes are not being produced or stomach acid. That's a huge one. We can go into stomach acid and melatonin. That's also another really big thing, but you know, there's a lot of opportunities that come through on the supplemental and nutritional side, just from blood chemistry.

So I would say that's like, number one, just start there because we should all be going to our physician and getting this lab work anyways. And then maybe we don't have to jump to the fancy testing. We could just find out right now. Can I improve my digestion by chewing a little bit more by slowing down?

By getting good hydration. So making sure we don't have the heavy metals in our water, making sure we're not drinking alkaline water, which is going to destroy our stomach acid, or making sure we're replenishing the minerals. If we are, you know, say your tap water source is contaminated and you have to filter that out, well, you have to put the minerals back in so your cells can absorb the water.

So I'm just throwing out a lot of random examples, but blood chemistry, I just think I can't speak more highly about it. There's just so many opportunities there alone. So good. Okay. So two times a year would be ideal, at least to start there. And I loved your call out around really everyone having the opportunity to test with a glucose monitor as well.

I so I'm on that bandwagon. I think that just if literally every person on this planet could at least just for some period of time for a month, even just to ideally more, but a month would be awesome, right? Just to be able to, when you start to equate, oh my gosh, this muffin is going to have a whole.

whole physiological response. It has you think differently about your choices and begin to be a performance based piece, which I think is another aspect of biohacking. Really one of the reasons I got into it was because I felt so awful and wanted to actually learn how could I impact my energy. how I felt moment to moment and really starting to equate that each one of our choices that we engage in have a real tangible effect.

And I think you're pointing to that so beautifully with CGMs and testing and, and then we get to be empowered because then we get to go back and do those tests in another six months or whatever and see some of the changes that hopefully have come about by our initiatives. really smart. What I just want to say, you don't necessarily have to wait for the retest.

Like hopefully we can cross reference with your symptoms and you'll be able to put the pieces together. Maybe you just haven't had that conversation before. Oh, in my lab test, it looks like I'm dehydrated. Oh wait. Oh my gosh. I actually do feel dehydrated and oh wait, I'm waking up to pee a million times a night, but I'm drinking so much water.

Okay. I have three pieces of evidence that all tell the same story. So maybe you don't have to wait for the retest, but you can say, Oh, I'm peeing less than them in. In the middle of the night and I feel more hydrated. So I think that we're moving in the right direction Beautiful so important renee anything to add to those call outs I mean, I would ditto that on the basic labs, I actually, I just got a new client yesterday and looking through his labs and only like two things were marked as high or low, you know, out of range.

And when I plugged them into, um, the amazing spreadsheet made by my sister, Lauren, so that I can just plug all the labs in and it'll tell me whether things are optimal, high, low, what it means and stuff, just so I'm not always having to like. you know, look back at the book, whatever. So anyways, thank you to Lauren for that.

But anyways, I plug it in and it's amazing how many things are out of range. And then you do put the puzzle pieces together and it's like, oh, those three things all, all point to liver dysfunction. Those three points of dehydration and those three points of low stomach acid, right? You can start to correlate how everything makes sense.

And then you look at their symptoms and it all matches up. And it's just so simple, like your doctor should run it, your insurance should cover for it, there's just no reason to not start there. And, and Molly, like you were saying, like, I don't want to overwhelm people with like the fancy labs and the tech and the data.

This is all great, but you have to start with the basics, like the ancestral hacks, the getting outside, getting the light, the sleep hygiene, um, cleaning up your diet, working out, like you have to do all the basics first. Like, don't, don't even worry about the other stuff if you're starting down here.

That's that's the top of the pyramid or the icing on the cake, but. So smart. How can we get the spreadsheet? We need the spreadsheet. Come on, market this thing. Okay. I'm happy to share the spreadsheet with you. Oh my God. Yes. We'll put it in the spread notes, folks. No, just kidding. Kidding. Uh. Okay. Peace. Can you imagine?

I mean, talk about advocating for your own health. People be plugging in their numbers, right? No, listen, like, we have to be critical thinkers here. And that's what I really hope to share. That's what we hope to share with our audience. That there is an answer so we can believe in the fact that there is an answer and even if the puzzle may be Why there's something that you can start doing today to feel better and that's what we all talk about is behavioral stuff We continue on the optimization path And yes, there probably will always be more opportunities to up level and keep getting better and feeling better like The sky is the limit.

Yes. Oh, amazing. Okay. Well, I think that's a perfect place to actually, one of the things I'm super excited about to hear from both of you, how you're taking all of this amazing information. I mean, you guys have been doing your podcast for ages. You're talking to incredible experts. You guys are. doing the work.

So I'm excited to hear how you're managing your own sleep, what we can learn, because you're also, it's not just like you're always in a set location and doing the same thing, you know, you're at your big lives and traveling and all that. So definitely want to hear the latest. So the first question we, I was worried.

You guys both, I think, just got home from some epic trip and all kinds of things are at play. So I'm very curious to hear. So our first question we ask everyone is what is your nightly sleep routine looking like? Can't wait to hear the answer. Oh gosh. Well, yes, I've been traveling a ton and Renee travels pretty consistently as well.

So I'll just do when I'm at home. Yeah. My basic is. Actually, no, I do this all the time. I love a preset and I got the word preset from my Broadway musical theater days performing, you know, you have to preset before you go on stage. Maybe it's a prop or a costume. You do a preset. So, I use this element at home.

I preset. So, typically, like as soon as I finish dinner, I will go get in my pajamas, wash my face, you know, do all the presets, pull the covers down, move the pillows, close the blinds. Does that make sense? I'm calling them precepts. I am. I was like, wait, what's a precept? That is so amazing. So, I call them my precepts so that I don't have to do it immediately before sleep.

So, I do it right after dinner so that I get all the stuff because I don't know. I'm quite a busy buddy. I have all my things in my sleep environment and if I do them right before I go to sleep, it could be quite stimulating. So, I'm trying to get all the busyness out of the way. about two hours before sleep.

So then I can go, you know, back downstairs, maybe watch some TV because I enjoy that. Yeah, totally. I'll be social. And then when I feel like I've winded down, my nervous system is calm. I can just slide into bed. Rather than, you know, right before sleep, I'm closing the blinds and moving the sheets and changing and totally would wake myself up.

So presets love my presets. I love that concept. That is fantastic because yeah, I think you're right. That can be kind of activating and so finding what works for you and provide and then that sense of ah, okay. So then I can have this part two, but I had never heard it in those terms. Very, very cool. It's a theater thing.

Yeah. I remember that term. Yes. Yeah. So cool. And how about you, Renee? How do you think about your evening sleep routine? Yeah. Well, funny enough, Lauren and I have not really talked about this, but I do the same thing and I'm going to steal the preset term. Shocker. Yeah, so I, I like to finish dinner, I would say by seven at the absolute latest, and then that is when I go up, I shower, I wash my face, get in my PJs, like an old lady at 7pm, heck yeah, same, yep, yep, and then that's when I start like dimming the lights for the night, yes, like Brian and I usually will watch An episode of something on Netflix.

That's when I put my amp coil on my lap and do like the relax all program, which just kind of calms down the nervous system. I got my blue blockers on at that point. Yeah, because I noticed. And even now, like if I go out for the night and say I'm out till 10 o'clock and I get home, then I'm washing my face and doing all the things and yeah, then I'm wide awake when I get in bed.

So definitely is like a huge, huge game changer. So yeah, the preset thing is awesome. Also I do like some sleep supplements. Molly, I think of you every single night when I take something because the desert island. Oh, the desert island. Yeah, exactly. The desert island effect. We're always aiming to more, I would say from a sleep kind of confidence piece is our goal because often so many people that I'm working with, and certainly when I was struggling with my sleep, it was like sleep confidence was nowhere to be found.

And this sense that I can't trust myself intuitively to get a great night of sleep and calm that mind and all those things. So during that time, when I was in that state, it was like, give me everything to knock me out. And so coming from that,

Just dump everything down the throat. Oh my God. So our aim, of course, is to be able to trust ourselves so that worst case scenario, you know, the luggage gets lost and whatever, uh, it might not be our ideal, but we can trust that we can get our sleep ourselves. And yet I appreciate you saying that, Renee, because at the same time, that doesn't mean we don't want to optimize where we can.

So yes. So you've got your stack, uh, it sounds like. What does that look like? Yeah. And. Well, and I'm always changing it up because, you know, whether a supplement company says, Oh, this is not habit forming, blah, blah, blah. I still, I don't want to get addicted to anything. So I am always changing it up. Like maybe some CBD oil one night, maybe some magnesium, valerian root.

I'm always switching it up. And then I am always doing a couple of nights with nothing. Yes, I think of you, Molly, and I can. I can still sleep great. Um, I mean, you guys know I'm like the sleep queen. I sleep great anyways, but when I do play around with different stacks, I might have a little bit more deep sleep, a little bit more REM sleep, maybe quicker sleep latency.

And I just kind of like, like to play with that, but smart. I love that. No, that cycling, I think is super important. And we do have a lot of people that they've got, you know, the kitchen sink thrown at their sleep consistently every single night. And this sense that then if they get don't have that perfect stack, then they're not going to get sleep.

You know, it's this ebb and flow. So I love that you're dynamically playing with that. Fantastic. Do we leave out anything for a nighttime routine? I think, okay, presets. Uh, it's kind of part of my takeaway. Amazing. Okay. Okay. Passageata kind of counts because I mean, right, like our sleep optimization starts when we wake up, right?

We all know that. Yes. But the passagiata, so going for a 20 minute walk after dinner, especially now that it's starting to warm up a little bit here in Vegas. Yes. That is also so great. And then I go shower and do all the things, but. Ah, that is so brilliant. I feel like just that alone can be such a kind of calming practice, but also have some of the benefits if we're wearing a CGM and so a lot of multifaceted impacts.

Love it. Yeah. Oh, I just remembered a huge part of my nighttime routine. I always stretch before I go to bed. I don't know how I could forget about that. Really? Oh my god. I'm doing that recently. We just got the new, well, new to us Theragun, because we had the mini before and now just got like the bigger guy.

So now I've been adding the jackhammer one. Exactly. Uh, so adding all of those things in, exactly. Totally. Uh, so you do that every night. So the stretching, not, not the Theragun, but the stretching. Yeah, for so many reasons. Well, one, if you're sleeping for eight hours, you're probably moving more towards a fetal position.

Everything is shortening. And so we wake up and as we get older, you know, it's, it's harder to get up out of bed as we get older. So you want to lengthen the muscles as much as possible before you go to sleep to give you a better chance of. Less shortening overnight, but also it's just such a great down regulation decompression opportunity I can't do much while I'm stretching.

I lay on my floor and it's hard to be on my phone at the same time, you know, maybe I can put TV on, but I, I don't typically, so it ends up being kind of a meditation for me. It's, it's, I get to kind of unwind from the day, finish my last ruminating thoughts, you know, get through them. So I'm complete with that mental process.

Amazing. I could do some breath work. It just, I just find it's like one of the most calming things and then, you know, we get the recovery that we all say that we need to do more of. Right. Yes. I stretch every night and I still don't stretch enough. So that's at least a five to ten minute opportunity that I definitely get in and it has profound effects for sleep and down regulation as well.

I love that you're calling that out. And actually I think of you from the movement piece. So everyone should definitely be following you guys on Instagram and you've got great content. And I constantly for, for movement, you are like my movement go to and my brain, because I know myself that I need to up my level of movement.

And you just inspired me to start. I think I can start bringing in more of that. Stretching piece in the evenings than I'm doing now. So that's fantastic and for all of us an opportunity to put the phones away for longer than we might normally be doing love that. Okay. Fantastic. She's she's my little monkey.

Yes, right. I know doing all kinds of movements and the whole, that's amazing. I know at that as I'm standing I'm like, I need some stretching myself. Okay. It just feels so good. So you do it, you're like, ah, I wanna do more of that. Yes. Amazing. Okay, so then our second question is, and Renee, you alluded to this, what is your, we argue morning sleep routine look like meaning, which always confuses everyone.

Meaning, um, Your morning, what does that look like? And we're making the argument that that can impact our sleep results in the evening. So what do we see there for you guys? Yeah, I mean, not to sound like a broken record, but morning sunshine, you know, it's so great that everyone is very aware of that now and talking about it.

And, and I'm just so sensitive to that. I mean, to be honest, one of the reasons I moved to Vegas was just to get more sunshine. Yes. Like when I was living in Maryland, I was driving to the office at 7am. It was still dark out most mornings and in the winter I'd be leaving at 530 and it was so dark. Like I never saw sun.

Um, and I was always tired and foggy, a little depressed. And so now that I live in Vegas and I work from home, like, I'm so, so grateful that I have the opportunity to get that morning sunshine. It's just such a game changer for me. And you know, for people that are maybe still in living in the Northeast, dealing with the cloudy days, like I was driving to the office in the dark, I do think like one of the, the sad lights, you know, is really helpful.

Ooh, so good. Actually, Renee, and another piece to the fact that you guys really walk your talk. Renee, what is your vitamin D level? It's like insane, right? Last night, it's like triple digits. Nuts. I think I hit, I hit like 102. So I've really been careful. And that was not intentional at all. That was just Vegas sun.

And then I. I did have to get a little nitpicky. You know how like supplement brands are now it's like, Oh, here's 500. I use a vitamin D and here's a thousand micrograms of B12. They just like throw stuff in there. So I had to get really nitpicky and like cut out all the vitamin D cause you can have too high of a vitamin D level.

Yes. That is important to know. That is a dangerous thing. Yes. Thank you. That's why you always want to test. Don't just supplement randomly. You always want to be testing, but yeah, I mean, I can't believe how high mine got. Amazing. Well, I know you certainly prioritize that sun and certainly Vegas is fantastic for that.

So good. And then I have to play my Disney music. You guys know that. There it is. Joy. You can't cut out joy. Yeah. Yeah. It's a vitamin, vitamin joy. Yep. Vitamin J. Um, I'll just throw in like the Disney Pandora station or if I'm in my kitchen, I'll throw it on the TV. I just love Disney. Everyone knows I love Disney.

I think find what music or meditation or sound, something that you can literally feel the energetic boost and play that in the morning. It's, it's amazing for me. I love it. Oh yeah. I've been starting to get into sound therapy a lot more now too. I love, I think it's so important. So good. And then Lauren, how about you?

Sunshine, of course, but I'm going to pair that with movement. That's my morning coffee. I do love my coffee, but I am very grateful that I don't need coffee. I drink it because I like the taste. Yeah. I move first thing in the morning. I try to get outside in the sunshine and I move there because it allows.

It opens up the communication channels in my body. It allows my body to start talking to me throughout the rest of the day. So, it kind of ends up being a diagnostic. If we can move the body, then our body tells us, so this is tight, this is not, this needs to be moved today. This is the kind of workout that would serve me best.

So, that's my kind of meditation and getting in touch with my body because your body is such a powerful communicator. If you start the conversation, just... Not a lot of us talk to our bodies enough to get that feedback. So one, it's the diagnostic. Two, it wakes me up. I find it's better than a cup of coffee, especially in the sunshine.

And then I can enjoy my coffee and that's delicious and fun. Joy stacking. Yep. Yeah. So I just, I find movement just is such a powerful stimulator of the body. And then beyond that, I know you asked about morning, but I think nutrition is such an important piece, not stimulating your insulin too quickly in the morning, so favoring more protein and fat first thing in the morning.

And then if we were going to carry it through the end of the day, I know this is not your morning question, but favoring more carbohydrates in the evening because we do want that insulin response in the evening to kind of clear those amino acids and allow the body to release tryptophan, which is going to help us to produce serotonin.

And then that produces melatonin. So really kind of start, uh, cycling your carbs throughout the day, higher protein in the morning, which pairs well with cortisol, more stimulation, sunshine. And then the sun goes down and we're supposed to be producing melatonin, more carbohydrates. So that's kind of just like an easy nutrition.

Yeah. I think a lot of us are still like old program conditioning to think that we're supposed to avoid carbs in the evening. Yeah. And a lot of times we eat them for breakfast. Still are more carbs, even though we know better. Yeah. When we go to the it. Coffee shops. Like, it's very difficult to get protein still, even if we know better.

Ugh. So good. Controlling for it when we can. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I love that you're speaking to this. And I know you both are such experts in this area of stabilizing blood sugar, which it's one of the most, I think, missed areas for our biggest complaint we get, which is wake ups and people being so frustrated about waking up throughout the course of the night.

And I'm sure you guys see this all the time that people are living this roller coaster. And then of course, that roller coaster is going to still keep going. throughout the night and that can be really problematic and could be part of the source point of many people's wake up. So I love that you're speaking to that because that will directly impact your sleep results.

Really really great. And the third question is what might we visibly see on your nightstand or even proverbial nightstand you're traveling, you know, ambiance, apps, gadgets. Supplements, anything in the space? Always red lights. Like all the red lights. As many red lights as possible. , same. Ditto. I have a red light bulb in my nightstand.

Yeah. So when I'm doing my presets, I switch from any overhead lights off. Red light goes on. So then that's the only simulation, uh, light simulation I have. And then also when I travel, I think all three of us have the portable either plugins or the hockey pucks. Yeah, we were just traveling. We went to Tahoe and.

You know, we had an interesting sleep arrangement. We had five of us in a room. Sorry The fifth one was a dog. Four plus a dog. Oh yeah. Felt like five. Yeah. Totally. He snored. He snored. So he counts as a person. Totally. It was five hot bodies in a room. Anyway, so, but I had the red lights there. Always travel with them because if I do get up and go to the bathroom, I'm not going to turn on the light.

And I have... you know, injured myself bumping into walls and beds many times. So yeah, I find the red light is quite helpful. Um, I also, I don't often do this when I travel, but at home I always have a journal because I am a huge fan of brain dumping. Yes, I am sort of, uh, in that category, the dolphin, light sleeper, lots of rumination, worrying, overthinking.

And so a piece of paper. And so I just keep it next to my bed, My nightstand. So I'll bring something before bed. And if I do wake up If anything's on my mind, I'm just like, put it on the paper, put it on the paper. So good. Love that. Amazing. Uh, Renee, how about you? Anything in the space that would, um, be important for us to note?

I mean, I have a stack of books. That's just where I like to keep them. I don't know if I feel like maybe I will learn while sleeping or something. I'm just sitting there. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember that meme of the little boy like washing the book over his face like he was just going to push it into his brain?

That's what I'm picturing. Literally same. I am still waiting for that to happen. So that's there. Um, same. I have a journal and oh my gosh, I am so guilty of this. Like two nights ago, I did not do my brain dump in my journal and sure enough, I woke up at 3 a. m., went to the bathroom, I get back in bed and I swear I was awake for like an hour.

All the things I had to do, and I'm like, if I had just gotten up and written them down, I would have fallen back asleep. I know. So even though we know the things, sometimes we need a reminder to do the things. We live and learn constantly. Totally. I know. I just was, uh, sharing in somewhere, a newsletter, something.

This one of our participants in our, one of our last cohorts found, I don't know how I snoozed on this, but they found a, uh, red light pen. So I don't know if you guys have these red light pens. I saw that in your newsletter. It's so brilliant. I know. I need to buy one. Yes, it's on Amazon. Anyone listening?

Totally. Might sound like a small thing, but it's super helpful because then it's 3 a. m. And you've got 9 million stressors. Then suddenly you have this little pen on your nightstand and then you can just write it all out, not be disruptive. And then, you know, let your brain be at peace and then be back to sleep.

So yeah, big, uh, big coin. say it is humbling and joyful to look at the scribble that is not legible the next morning if you did write in the dark. Yes. And then it truly is a brain dump because you're not trying to decipher it and, you know, digest it the next day. It is True scribble, and that just makes me laugh so much.

Ah, it's so many. Ugh, when I was in my insomnia stress ball case, oh my gosh, the scribbles of like, oh, I gotta do this, gotta do that, oh! I mean, I can laugh at it now, but at the time it was like, help! Just let me sleep! And just getting out those thoughts, and so you're so right, the ability to do that is so, so important.

It could be artwork. You should frame it. Nighttime scribbles. I like that. Oh, maybe we got a new revenue stream here. Amazing. And do we leave anything out on that one? Any? Sound machine. Oh, yes. Brilliant. Sound machine. Although mine is hilarious because it's basically an antique at this point. Um, when my husband Ryan and I first met, or 17 years ago, We found this amazing sound machine.

It was on the first iPhone ever made into the old thing, and it still works. 17 years later, the thing still works. The app is like long gone. You can't even like download it or pay for it or anything now, but. You play that and both of us are instantly like, Oh, 17 years. How did I miss that? It's been seven.

I knew it was a long time. I missed 17 years. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. Yeah. I gotta hold on to that forever. I know, but it will soon be an antique in like an apple museum or something and then they'll have to find a new sound machine. Amazing. The sound machine is huge. I, I don't know how people sleep in silence.

I really don't understand it. I don't get that either, especially for travel because it's so, so, so for travel just to check in. So is that, uh, one of the things that you bring and use this exact same thing when you're traveling too? And so when we travel, yeah, when we travel, actually, Ryan has a different sound machine app on his phone, um, that we'll usually use.

Lauren's not a huge fan of it. And then I, I have brain FM. So when I'm traveling by myself, I use the brain FM tracks. Okay. Got it. How about Lauren? Don't you have waves, sir? You have all kinds of different things. Yes. I play waves. This is a point of contention within our family because we have shared spaces for sleep.

Like we just did last week. And It's really interesting. Like the, the preferences for sounds I find are so individualized. So hopefully you are, you know, in your own environment most of the time and like gone are the days where I can just sleep in a room with a bunch of people. Yes. I don't love Renee and Ryan's Sounds there's this like weird kind of dissonant chord.

It makes me feel like I'm going to have nightmares and then I play waves, which I like, but are very loud and very aggressive to them. So, you know, I think it's just important to find what feels good to you. It makes you feel safe. Yes. I know you've talked about this a lot, like safety. So, Incredibly important for the nervous system.

And I do think there's some retraining where it's like, if you're having that response to something and it kind of ticks you off, you could have that conversation of, is it ticking me off? You know, what is that conditioning? Can I reset that maybe? And like tell a new story, potentially. But at the end of the day, we all have our own preferences and it's whatever makes you feel safe and at home in your body.

And with the traveling, the first night effect, we have just found over and over again. God, like, safety is the number one thing. How can you just feel as comfortable as possible, as quickly as possible? Brilliant. Yes, I love that. Okay, so I'm super curious on the last question. What would you both say has made the biggest change to your sleep game or, said another way, biggest aha moment in managing your sleep?

There's so many, but I know, right? Such a hard question. I'll try to prioritize. The biggest change I think was Not performing on Broadway anymore. That schedule is just grueling and I loved it and I missed it. It was amazing. Yeah. But having lights shown into your eyes at 11 PM. Yes. Cranking out adrenaline, being in a dark, potentially moldy theater.

Once I got out of there, my sleep definitely upleveled. So, that was a big one and You know, there's feelings with that. I miss it a lot. Yeah. Um, but yeah, not cranking adrenaline till 11 p. m. is probably quite important. So true. I mean, shift working really is what that is. And it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So fantastic that you got to see both sides of that.

And I think that can be powerful for all of us. Dr. Sachin Panda was pointing to this argument that at any given time, around 50% of our population is engaging in some form of shift work, whether new parents, certain kind of skews outside of, you know, for kids in college, certain ways that we're managing our days and then legitimate shift work where you're actually going in and checking in at a certain time, making this argument that we're engaging in some form of shift work.

So I think it can be powerful for us to see what does our sleep look like when we're doing that. And then on the other side you've got to have the gift of then what does it look like when I'm able to design it and, uh, feeling that difference. So that's amazing. Yeah, and I think there are always sacrifices and being in that is being in that industry is just such a privilege.

It's amazing. But I guess just funny story when I was performing, I was trying to hack it. So I would go backstage and put on my blue light blockers knowing that I would have to take them off to go back on stage to finish the production. And I found that was actually more aggressive. So I feel like trying to biohack too much was not serving me.

It was like, you just have to, there's a certain level of acceptance if you're in that environment. I think that's true. Even for anyone, if you're socializing, there's going to be nights when you're out later and the lighting you can't control and we could try to fight it and biohack it or we could just accept it and you do all the other things that are under our control.

So that was also a big learning lesson for me. Uh, the second thing was king bed. It's got to be a king bed because I have a dog that there's no way he's ever not sleeping in my bed. It's really important to me. The oxytocin, the cuddles are just. They're a priority. I love them and my partner. So we need a king bed.

Yeah. And the third thing is just temperature. I think that was probably the huge aha moment. I used to sleep so hot. And it's like, you don't know what you're missing until you try something else. And once I experienced cool, cold sleeping. Ugh, the best. Stats change, change like subjective markers, just overall feeling, deep quality, just massive.

Ugh. The temperature variable to me is just the number one. Top huge. Oh, I love that. You're saying that too. I think many people underestimate and they'll say, Oh, well, you know, the room's pretty cool. I think we're good there. But then you peel back the layers of what's on the bed, literally. And you know, we're just cooking and in these kind of foreign types of material that we would have never.

really stayed in for an extended period of time as hunter gatherer days. So it's actually an opportunity to mimic how things might have been in nature. So I love that you're doing that. It's fantastic. Yeah. And just like quick analogy, it's like, okay, you may feel fine sleeping warm, but because you don't know what it feels like to sleep cold, it's kind of like eating.

A high protein, good fat diet, but not good quality and then switching to all organic. Yes. You probably felt fine eating that high protein, you know, burger from, I don't want to throw out terrible names, but then you switch it to organic, you're like, Oh my gosh, it's the same macronutrient profile, but I feel like a completely different person.

Yes. It's the quality up level that. It's just you have to experience it 100% so well said. I'm excited that I think more and more people are starting to get in on this conversation and more and more companies and mattress companies and the whole world of it different options and different price points for us to all be in that conversation.

So it's so good. And how about you, Renee? What would you say in this area? Yeah, I think my first aha was back in 2008 when I totally like crashed and burned. Like I said, I was barely sleeping and you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead was totally my motto. I thought, you know, the less sleep, the more productive I fell into that trap.

And then I was forced to sleep. I didn't even have like the option. I was forced to sleep. So that was a big wake up call that. You know, it's not, I'll sleep when I'm dead. It's, I'm going to die really soon if I don't sleep. So just, just understanding how important sleep is at the very basic level. But, um, as far as biohacking, I would say the temperature, Lauren and I talked a lot about this when we were in Tahoe over the weekend.

Cause I was, I was battling everyone in the room. I was like, can we make it colder tonight and colder and colder and colder? I'm like, it's 10 degrees outside. Can we open the window please? Um, And I don't know, actually, I would, we can maybe talk off air too, but Molly, I'm curious from you, like, the more we get used to sleeping in the cold, is it harder for us to sleep in the hot?

Because I can't travel anywhere now. I feel like I'm just melting. I know. I know the point of being spoiled. We're talking about like a moderate biohacking level because you go too far and then you can't be in the real world. Well, exactly. I know. And that is kind of a more esoteric question and one that needs, I think there's an opportunity to really study this.

So I think, and I think there's a missing because now that There is this optionality to really temperature control our space. And there's this argument too, that part of what is problematic in our temperature regulated environments is the absence of high amplitude shift. You know? So, cause when we're outside, I mean, the best examples often, if you think of like a beach day, you know, it's like hot and, you know, bright and all those things.

And then the sun goes down and you like watch the sunset on the sand and suddenly like the sand's cold and everything's cold and it's just like this whole other. very visceral change because it dropped so markedly. And so that change is part of that signaling process. That same piece that we get out of melatonin and yet it's missing when we're spending over 90% of our time indoors and many of us just kind of keep the same temperature all.

day and night, many of my, especially there are certain, I would say, so my older clientele just is not even remotely dropping their temperature for nighttime. And sometimes even I've had some that are turning it up because they want it to be cozy and what have you. So all these things are counter to our bodies.

So the importance of the drop is. key, but the acclimation process could be missing than when we find ourselves in a situation where that is not present, how to acclimate to the absence of that. And acclimation can take different times. There's studies on that for athletes and looking at kind of heat adaptation.

So I guess the long answer is definitely we, I think there's an opportunity for more. studies on this, is this serving us or is this hurting our kind of flexibility when we're in other environments? It's kind of this question of are we noticing it more because now we had this opportunity kind of as Lauren was saying, like you just didn't really realize what this would feel like and so there's kind of that question there that I think could use some more information for sure.

Yeah, potential content for another roundtable because that flexibility likens us up to so many different categories like metabolic flexibility, which we train our metabolism to be able to respond no matter what fuel is in front of us. Maybe we could train our bodies to respond to any sleep environment, train our nervous system like we've learned with HANU and HRV training.

We should be able to respond and not get stuck in fight or flight. Yeah. What if we were just flexible all around? Yes. I feel like that could be an, a new shift and a new, uh, focus for the biohacking industry. It's just been love that more flexible in all realms. Yeah. I mean, a great example of that. You guys were just at altitude, I'm assuming when we're at altitude often we have hits on our H R V, our heart rate tends to go up.

I don't know if you guys felt that or how high at altitude you were. Mine went up my h I was high there. Magic. Okay. Tell me more. I didn't see any hits either, and I actually put a CGM on because I've had a lot of clients saying, Oh my gosh, I'm going at altitude, I'm skiing, or whatever, I'm in the mountains, and my CGM is misbehaving.

So I put mine on, and I actually didn't see any shift, and we were at pretty high, you know, top. Elevation was 10, 000 feet. So I think it just comes back to the conversation. Yeah. Sleeping at 6, 000, sleeping at 6, 000, seeing 10, 000, but no variability on the CGM that was out of the ordinary. So I think it always comes back to what is the larger puzzle telling us?

Like there are so many different variables and I think we tend to blame one thing because it's the easy thing, but how can we step back, zoom out and look at the entire picture and just. believe that like anything is possible. Love that. For good or bad, right? Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent. Have to be open minded.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And for the altitude piece, one of the things too that can also be, I love that you are, because many people will do this, train at high altitude and sleep at a lower altitude. And you can actually get a little bit of a benefit, um, is the thinking, because one of the things we'll see is if people are sleeping at high altitude, then when they come back to sea level, they often have a improvement in their HRV.

So you get this cool rebound. So I'd be curious if that's partly a play, we're going to have some. And sleep coming on. So we'll have to find out more, but we'll circle back on our round table. Yeah, exactly. But no, it was so beautifully said. I think that is really, really just, um, a fantastic ethos and philosophy.

And I think sums up how one of the important benefits that I think you guys are getting out to the world is. how to really prioritize our health and well being. Stay curious, stay engaged, stay in this conversation. And I think you guys are living this and it's just so, so important. So for anyone listening that now I'm clear has been riveted and just, you know, engaged in what you're sharing, how can they follow you?

What are all the ways? Our website is thebiohackerbabes. com. We are primarily on Instagram, though trying really hard to do all of the different platforms. Yes, so on Instagram, biohacker underscore babes. My personal page is lauren underscore san batero. Renee's name used to be san batero, now it's bells.

Ooh, so yes, Renee Bells on Instagram. Perfect. Yes. Oh, people should absolutely follow both your podcast and Instagram. And as you said, all the platforms, I know you're putting out fantastic content consistently. And we were just talking before we hit record. The two of you both individually edit your podcasts together.

Like, you know, take the time like this is the level of attention. It is going into these things. So the product is really, really just of a high caliber. So definitely get in on listening to their podcast. Lots of gems. I'm excited to have you all back for our, you know, hundredth round table or whatever we're on.

Uh, Morgan. Thank you both for coming. It just makes really such a difference and so grateful the work that you're doing. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having us. It's always a fun conversation with you. I know we could go on and on. Oh, 100%. Well, more to come. You've been listening to the Sleep as a Skill podcast, the number one podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level.

Every Monday, I send out something that I call Molly's Monday Obsessions, containing everything that I'm obsessing over in the world of sleep. Head on over to sleepasaskill. com to sign up.

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