143: Nathalie Niddam, Peptides Expert: How Peptides Could Improve Sleep & Hormone Balance (Plus New Peptiide Laws)!

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of sleep as a skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about.

sleep. Each week, I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keep Keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. Today we're diving into the world of peptides. Are you confused about peptides and have you considered using peptides for your sleep, but have no idea where you might begin because they've got weird names and now suddenly there's weird regulations on them? Well, Stay tuned because our guest is an expert in peptides and so much more.

So first I'm going to read you her bio, which is Nat Nidham is a holistic nutritionist, human potential and epigenetic coach and the host of the biohacking superhuman performance podcast. She also happens to be a close friend of mine. I'm just adding that part in. She's fantastic. And Nat is also passionate about peptides and peptide bioregulators, compounds that many in the Based believe will revolutionize medicine in the next few years.

So we touch on a lot of topics about how we can think about utilizing peptides for our health and of course for our sleep. But she also delivered some late breaking information about how to navigate some of the new rules and regulations to be aware of around peptides. So we'll get into all that and so much more.

But first, a few words from our sponsors.  Here at the sleep is a skill podcast. We're all about enhancing your sleep and a cornerstone of that journey often revolves around stabilizing your blood sugar levels. That's precisely where good idea steps in. Good idea is an innovative drink crafted by scientists in Sweden that actively assists in balancing your blood sugar.

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Just a quick interesting fact about sleep to mention, drinking more than two servings of alcohol per day for men and more than one serving per day for women Can decrease sleep quality by 39. 2%. A sleep foundation survey reports, not even mentioning all the indulgent food and late night effects that often come along with it.

And as we know, sleep is the key to your body's rejuvenation and repair process. It controls hunger and weight loss hormones, boost energy levels and impacts. Countless other functions. A good night's sleep will improve your wellbeing much more than just about anything else I can possibly think of on the planet.

You know, I'm biased, but gotta say that. And sleep is your major to focus on as we head into the fall season and hopefully beyond. And that's why I recommend that if you're going to start taking some supplements on your sleep, often magnesium is a great place to begin. but not just any magnesium supplement.

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And welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast.  This is a dear friend of mine, Nathalie Niddam. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here where our only problem with the two of us is that we could talk. Forever and ever and ever. So we're going to see what we can do to jam it into a action packed podcast.

So thank you so much for being here. Oh my god, Mollie, thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here. I'm so excited and I mean, you know, we actually did have another day to record this, only we ended up talking the whole time we were supposed to be recording. We are the cutest. So one of the last times we were chatting, we were on our Mutual treadmill desks, which actually for two seconds, I thought about doing, you know, who knows, but it's noisy and then you get distracted.

And what if we trip? And what if we trip, which could make for great content? But, uh,  but yeah, so the two of us, um, we've had the opportunity to be together at Sarasota and one of these events that we were both speaking at and got to stay in a Airbnb together and go in even more deeply on all kinds of topics.

And so just so respect the work that you're doing and so grateful for having the opportunity to be able to go in with actually what sounds like some late breaking news in the world of peptides, sleep and more. So just to start off with, how in the world did you become known as this? biohacking, health and well being, and peptide expert.

Yeah. Well, that's a good question. I'm not exactly sure. I think it's because I talk a lot.

Basically, I became, I went back to school too. I left a job in corporate sales like  14 years ago, um, and went back to school and became a holistic nutritionist, which was. You know, not so completely out of the blue because when I was in university longer ago than I care to admit, um, I, um, I studied physiology.

So, you know, human health and human, human biology, physiology was, has always been my jam. Um, I kind of kept my hand in that as a, up until really I went back to school, I was a fitness instructor. So that was kind of like my way of a little bit staying involved in the field.  And then I finally just, you know, woke up one morning and after saying for the 900th time, they can't possibly be paying me enough to do this, I decided they're not paying me enough to do this.

Yes. And so I went back to school and decided to dive into health, which is what I'd always wanted to do. And because I'm a bit of a foodie. nutrition seemed to be the right angle to take.  Amazing. So, so I became a holistic nutritionist, which was great until the part I figured out that, you know, just telling people what to do was never really quite enough to get them to change their behavior.

So that's where, you know, you kind of have this, this decision to make either. You're going to kind of keep going at this path and trudge along, or you're going to start looking for other strategies and tools, and that usually involves taking another course, doing another training, this and that, and that's when I became, um, I became a human potential coach at that point, back when I That training was called the Bulletproof Human Potential Coach Training.

Yes. Um, and then, and that opened my world really to this whole sphere of biohacking, which I was already pretty interested in at the time. Um, but the whole world of biohacking and also How do we get people out of their story, right? How do we actually coach people? How do we help people? Because, you know, we live in a world where there's no shortage of information.

Yeah. Like none. And the biggest problem I know with people that we both work with  is, is this relevant to me? Does it apply? And if it is, how the heck do I apply it to me? Like, where does it fit in? So this whole idea of being able to get your arms around this whole space and start to curate and understand information and also working with people and helping them.

to get through, work through their stories, you know, and, and get out of their own ways kind of thing. Anyway, after that, there were lots more continuing education things like epigenetics became my next jam after that, that I kind of layered in. And then one day I was at a conference  and sat myself down cause I was tired and the guy who was on stage talking, podcast this week.

It kind of came full circle. Um, His name is Dr. Dan Stickler and he was standing there talking about these things called peptides.  And, you know, he's talking about this Melanotan 2 thing that, you know, I have a tan, but I haven't spent any time in the sun and that kind of got my attention. And then he started talking about this stuff called Epidolon that somehow apparently restores melatonin production and makes old people, helps them to restore their circadian rhythm and lengthens telomeres and manage it.

He's like, how's the, this. overall effect, beneficial effect on hormones. And I'm kind of sitting there listening to this. Then he's talking about bone density and this and that. And the other thing, and I lean over and I tap the guy in front of me shoulder and I go,  is this guy for real? Like what? And this, the person who I happened to be the owner of a compounding pharmacy, he turned around and he said, dude, this is next level.

Wow. This is the future of medicine. Mm. This is what it's all about. And that was like hook, line, and sinker. I kind of, you know, got hooked and that was the end of me.  I'm still swimming through the rabbit hole, you know, trying to figure it all out. Sure. Oh, wow. That's amazing. I didn't know that backstory.

And I love that you already started to allude to some of these ways that some of those peptides could work their way beyond even just, of course, we always care about overall health and wellbeing. That's amazing. But. specifically this world of sleep. Now we've had some people on the podcast kind of alluding to certain peptides and formulations that could support sleep.

But I know of you and I've got to see you in action and you know, giving different talks and your podcast and just all the wealth of information that you have. So I'm wondering if you can kind of break down. Some of these things as many of the people listening are struggling with sleep or looking just to optimize and could I sleep better than I'm sleeping now?

And how could peptides play a role in that goal? Yeah. Well, that's a great question. And I think it's a question that people still,  it's still a work in progress. So the interesting thing about peptides.  Is that for the most part, these are not, um, they live in the gray zone, right? They are not approved for human use for the most part, not all, some are, um, and there's a lot we don't know.

What's interesting about peptides is that every one of them is at the very least a fragment of a naturally occurring protein in the human body. So these are, these are not foreign substances to the body in the truest sense of the world, they have receptors in the body, they have channels of communication in the body.

Like what we're not, what's not happening with a peptide is you're not blocking a pathway or forcing a pathway. So it's a very interesting, and I, to me, it's a very important distinction to make because it's not,  in many ways, what we're trying to do is we're trying to reintroduce something to the body.

in a different way, maybe, or in a different dose that can help the body. It almost like as a reminder is like, Hey, what if we open this door or what do we switch, right? And that essentially allows the body from in a, almost like a cascade kind of way to, it allows pathways to open up again. The other interesting thing about peptides is they don't typically get in the way of any negative or positive feedback loops that we have existing in the body, which creates.

A bit of a built in, and I, I'm going to call it a built in security system, and then I'm going to quickly say, that doesn't mean they're not without consequences. It doesn't mean that we should be using it with our eyes closed saying, oh, it's a peptide. It's naturally occurring in my body. What could possibly, nothing could possibly go wrong.

And this is a narrative that we hear. Often, and we see on social media from different people. And I think we need to be very cautious because  there's a lot we don't understand about our bodies, you know? And  I think that  in a perfect world, there would be many, many, many different clinical trials and studies happening with many different peptides to understand exactly how they work.

And unfortunately. And although there are studies going on and there are very famous peptides that people use every day, for example, insulin. Insulin is a peptide, right? A peptide is a  small protein. It's a signaling molecule in the body. And so we all know what insulin is. And then the latest darlings of the peptide world, of course, that have been now patented and modified and turned into drugs are the Ozempics and the Mungeros, um, which are essentially Pep, you know, the re reproductions, if you will, of peptides that are naturally occurring in your body.

But what they've done is they've modified them just enough to extend their, their, um.  their window of activity, right? So their half life is, would be the proper term. Apologies.  That fits too. Yeah, exactly. That's the word, half life. So the cool thing is that researchers figured out what the, what the GLP  1 was doing.

GLP 1 is something that is naturally occurring in your gut, but for many different reasons, some people don't make enough GLP 1. And one of those reasons, interestingly enough, has to do with the microbiome. When you lose...  You know, when our microbiome becomes imbalanced, and Mollie, I know that you probably talk about this on your podcast all the time, poor sleep.

Yes. 100%.  Yep. Right. But when we lose certain species of bacteria in our gut, one of them in particular being acromantia, acromantia  promotes the production of GLP 1 in the gut.  You know, you could almost, if you were kind of being kind of cheeky, you could say acromantia is the microbiome's. Mungero or ozempic, right?

Because it's a natural way. So anyway, all that to say, our guts get damaged. We don't make GLP 1. People are stuck in their weight loss journeys for whatever reason. These ozempics and mungeros are a beautiful solution and have been developed by drug companies.  from the founding, from starting with these little peptides that they've modified.

So  peptides are here and they are here to stay.  And so I've kind of a little bit lost my train of thought of where I was going with all this. Oh, yes.  I know. Well, I, I kind of opened up a big door for you of sleeping peptides. What are your  thoughts? It can be so far reaching to your point. If your gut's a disaster and we're looking to support peptides, you can make an argument that that is part of the journey to supporting great sleep.

And if we missed any call outs that you would think of that would directly support people in their sleep journey as well. Yeah, no, for sure. There are direct call outs. No, the peptides, the peptides people think about for sleep and I'll name them and then we can decide where we want to go with this. Sure.

The first most obvious one that people get very excited about is, is DSIP, which stands for Deep Sleep Inducing Peptide. When people hear that there is such a thing as a DSIP, Deep Sleep Inducing Peptide, they get super excited. They're like, Oh my goodness.  Sign me up, right? Here's the good news and the bad news about DSIP.

So DSIP was originally, um, found in the brains of bunnies and it has to do, it's, it's, it's definitely, and it is present in our plasma and there's situations like in neurodegenerative diseases and people with sleep, massive clinical sleep issues where DSIP levels are low, DSIP levels are actually present in mother's breast milk, um, and quite high.

The confounder there is they did a study on babies where they gave a bunch of babies mother's milk. Of course, babies  nurse, if you've ever had or been around babies, they nurse, they get super dopey, they fall asleep. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. They did the same experiment with a bunch of other babies and gave them artificial milk, and they still got super dopey and fell asleep.

So, it's a bit of a confounder because there was no DSIP in the second one, so we can't attribute the sleep effect only to the DSIP. I mean, if you think about a newborn baby, the whole workout of nursing is a big workout, so they probably just get tired from that.  And nobody looked at this baby sleep architecture.

Maybe there was a difference. In the babies who had DSIP and the babies who didn't. The quality. Sure. Right? Sleep quality may have been different, but nobody went that far. Yeah. Having said that, DSIP, when people hear about it, super excited.  The problem with DSIP, or, I mean, it's a good thing and a bad thing, is it will, it seems to be helpful for sleep for people who have disrupted sleep.

But it's not that helpful for people who have good sleep. So it won't make your sleep better if your sleep is already good, but it may actually be helpful to help you with better sleep. If your sleep is disrupted, um, so it's  right and, and, and this is an important distinction to make because especially in the biohacking community, of course, we're all chasing many different Holy Grails and one of the Holy Grails we're chasing is perfect sleep.

Right. And so my sleep is good, but I know it could be better. Or, you know, what if I could get five hours of deep sleep and three hours of REM sleep? Like, how amazing would that be?  Yes. DSIP is not going to do that for you.  And to that point, actually, you just made me think of another thing. So, so many people that are in that kind of, um, that often vicious cycle of looking for that perfect sleep.

One of the characteristics that we can see oftentimes for people that are struggling with their sleep can be that kind of perfectionist seeking tendencies and anxiety kind of way of being. Are there peptides that would support that mental health component, that anxiety piece, since we know that psychological, there's such a spillover  or you can't divorce your psychology with your sleep results.

Is there anything that you would point to with that or is that a little esoteric? No, there's actually, there's a couple of peptides and actually one of them, I meant to look it up before we started recording and I, I kind of for, well, I got tied up in a bunch of stuff, but yes.  there, there's a, there's like, um, Tweedle the and Tweedle dumb of the peptide world.

called Cmax and Clan. Okay. Right. And Cmax and Clan are anxiolytics. Obviously anything that's gonna help people to be less anxious is gonna be helpful for their sleep. Sure. Right. And they've got lots of different properties. And interestingly enough, both of those peptides are approved for human use and used extensively in countries like Russia and, um, also after traumatic brain injuries, they, they have some, some usefulness there, but one of them, and I can't remember which one it is.

We can put it in the show notes. I'll look it up and we can add it to the show notes. One of them in particular seems to be quite helpful for sleep.  Now, now, here's the thing,  peptides for the most part are not sedatives. So they're not. And DSIP is the same. It is not a sedative. It's not something that's going to make you fall asleep.

It is something that will improve your sleep. And, um, and there was even a study that I saw that said that it might even be helpful in cases of sleep apnea. Like it's, it's a very interesting peptide because it's affecting the brain. It, it works and because it's affecting the brain, it works in many ways that we don't fully understand.

Mm. Right. Got it. Okay. So, so it's the most obvious C max and C link because they're anxiolytics and also there's one of them in particular that facilitates a sleep pathway. Those two can be really helpful, especially for people who, where anxiety plays a real role. In their sleep dysregulation, right? Sure.

Or their sleep issues. Um, the next peptide I would say that comes up a lot are any of the growth hormone secretogugs. Yeah. Sure. Right. So these are, and I'll give you some names. We have  CJ's and I apologize for the names guys. I know. Why? Are they called this? Why, why, why, why, why? Well, because they're, because technically they're research chemicals and we'll talk about that in a minute.

Sure. But technically they haven't been turned into, they haven't been picked up by a drug company. Yeah. And patented and then represented to the world as a drug, right? Yeah. So they haven't been given that fancy sexy name yet. Yeah. So CJC1295  is, you know, what's interesting about it, usually the numbers will always refer to the amino acid number that like CJC1295 is a fragment.

I believe it's a fragment of growth hormone. So the 1, 2, 9, 5, I think is 12 to 95. So it's the numbers of the amino acid chain that it is that fragment that it is of the bigger peptide that is growth hormone, which is really a huge peptide.  Then we have things like ipamirillin or seramirillin. And seramirillin is a growth hormone secretagogue that actually has a very direct path and impact on a certain sleep pathway.

So it can be quite good for sleep. Now,  growth hormone secretagogue, what does that even mean? These are, these are natural compounds that are been made in a lab. They're now synthetic. They're reintroduced into the body that,  that essentially stimulate your brain to produce and release more growth hormone.

Wow. And somehow this influences sleep, and we know that we make growth hormone when we sleep. So for most people, when they use these growth hormone secretagogues before bed, which is one of the best times to use them,  they find that their sleep gets way better.  Interesting. Paradoxically, there's a certain percentage of the population that stay wide awake.

Oh, great. Yeah. So, you know, so, but I would say the lion's share of people find that they have much better sleep. Now the, one of the thing, and I was thinking about this this morning, as I was coming back from the gym, the problem with using a growth hormone secretagogue just for sleep is it's a bit of a roundabout way to doing it.

And you're, you're stimulating a lot of other things at the same time. Mm. So  really the, the main, the main nut, if you will, for growth hormone secretagogues is when you're looking to,  to restore growth hormone levels, which naturally decline as we age. And the reason you might want to do that is because having appropriate growth hormone levels can be anti aging.

It helps you to recover from your workouts. It can help to promote the building of muscle. the loss of fat. It helps you to repair in many different ways because we make growth, more growth hormone and growth hormone, of course, is the fixer in the body. So the growth hormone secretagogues primary, if you will, that primary thing is about.

improving growth hormone levels, and then the, the sleep becomes a sidebar to that.  The tricky thing with growth hormone, as you probably know, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners know, is it's very much of a sweet spot, right? Absolutely enough, but you don't want too much. Yes.  Is pro aging too much is also pro aging, plus you're treading into territory where you may start to grow things that you don't necessarily want, such as, for example, there's always a concern to basically promote the growth of cancers we might have in our bodies.

It won't give someone cancer, but let's say someone had a tumor, they didn't know it. Could extra growth hormone on board possibly kind of add fuel to that fire. So definitely.  Like, I'm going to repeat again. These are not approved for human use. There are a lot of people using them. There are a lot of functional medical doctors who are prescribing these to their patients because they can see it's much safer than growth hormone.

It's much more affordable than growth hormone. Um, it's itself, um,  But for people, if, if somebody is going to use any of these compounds, you first would want to have a check in and see if you can establish where are my growth hormone levels now. Right. And the way you would do that is to measure something called IGF 1, which is something that's produced by your liver in response to growth hormone.

Because of course we can't measure growth hormone because it goes up and down and up and down all day long. Right. Right. So it's kind of like catch the bouncing ball. Right. Yeah. So, anyway, this is a very long winded way of saying the growth hormone secretogonics as a category can be, in many, many cases, it can be helpful for sleep.

But I want to say that it's also, it's a roundabout way. It's you're going to be doing a lot of other things, so you have to make sure that Um, all of these other things that are going to be taking place are also going to serve you. If you were going to do something like that. And how often would you recommend testing to see that you're, or is it like a one time and you're, you're doing it and then you can start taking this peptides or do you recommend like quarterly tests or what do you see there?

So definitely it's a good idea to at least get a baseline before you start. Okay. Um, you know, you want to know where you're at. And if your IGF 1 levels are super high, this may not be a good idea. Um. Typically because people are stressed, they're not sleeping enough. They're  just because they're getting older for any number of reasons, growth, especially over the age, I'm going to say over the age of 40, definitely over 50.

And by the time you're 60, for sure. Yeah. Um, but  you know, getting the, getting that baseline. And then if somebody was going to use a growth hormone secretagogue, they would probably use it for, let's say two to three months.  And most people would recommend that they take a break at that point, at least for a couple of months.

And I did see a study on, I think it was a study done on men, older men that showed that for a month after they stopped their cycle of the growth hormone secretive guide, those IGF 1 levels actually still stayed high. And that may have to do also with lifestyle, right? So think about it that there are ways, natural ways we have of improving our growth hormone levels, paradoxically.

Um, getting good sleep is going to be supportive, right? But things like lifting weights, um, there's blood flow restriction training, there's sauna, there's fasting, like there's lots of different ways, tools that we have at our disposal to help to improve growth hormone. But some people will say, but yes, and if we can, if somebody is really kind of low and down in the dumps, if we give them that first lift.

Um, and now they start to sleep better and then they start to exercise more and we can start that spiral  after eight or 12 weeks. Maybe we've now made enough progress that we don't need the growth hormone secretagogue anymore and we can lean into some of these other strategies. So  it, it depends a lot on the physician and on a person's personal preference, what they're going to do.

But at the, but, but bottom line is that category of peptide definitely is used for. At least some of the time to help people with their sleep. And in that sense, they'd be using it at night.  And then the last one, so we talked a little bit about Cmax and C Lank, we talked about DSIP, we've talked about the growth hormones secretogogues.

The last one, which I kind of mentioned earlier, is actually out of the family of peptides called bioregulator peptides. Um, and these have  decades of human research behind them. So these are peptides that are super tiny. They're two to four amino acids long, and they  actually can enter the nucleus of the cell.

They can bind to DNA. And when they bind to DNA, they're essentially turning genes on or off, right? So  they're affecting us at an epigenetic level in the sense that they affect the way that our genes express. Wow. Okay. And that could be part of this puzzle. I know for anyone listening that then is saying, Oh, wow.

Okay. So this is a whole journey to  learning what could... Welcome to the rabbit hole. Yeah. Welcome to the rabbit hole. For those people, where might they begin if they say, well, I, you know, I've tried a lot of these things to support my sleep. I want to test out this world of peptides, but like where to begin?

Do I go to a functional medicine doctor? Do I buy it online? Are there new regulations? I know you're mentioning some changes that might be happening. How do we begin? For sure. And I think before we go there, I'll talk a little bit more about Epidolon, just because  it's, it's, it's a really interesting, and I think in view of what's happened over the last 48 hours, it may be one of our.

few remaining options that are easily accessible to us. Wow. Please. So the bioregulator peptides are essentially, in their original form, they are extracts from very specific tissues, glands, and organs of animals. Bioregulator peptides are naturally occurring in our bodies, but like everything else that seems, it seems like everything else that's good in our body levels start to decline as we age.

Yes. And so. This is the pineal gland bioregulator. The pineal gland is a little pine nut shaped gland in your brain. And it is shocking the load that this little teeny tiny bitty  blob of whatever it carries for us, right? So it. it regulates our circadian rhythm. Yeah. It regulates our melatonin production,  and it is also a master endocrine regulator just from the top, a top down kind of approach.

And then as I said earlier, it also activates telomerase, which acts on our telomeres, which are those shoelaces at the ends of the DNA. So when Professor Cavinson, who is the, the doctor and researcher who's been studying these for, I'm going to say, close to 40 years now in Russia. He did, he's done a ton of human trials on these.

And that lecture that I was listening to, um, what Dan was talking about was the results of one of those studies where he took Um, you know, a fairly large  group of 65 to 75 year old adults and split half the group got these polyvitamins. The other half of the group got epitalon. And what he was able to show was that the all cause mortality rate was dramatically lower after six and then 12 years.

in the group that got the epidylon versus the  polyvitamins. And then he repeated the experiment, but now it was only for six years with 75 to 85 year olds. And in the, in this group, he had people with who he gave epidylon to, people who he gave the polyvitamins to, and people who he gave both. the pineal gland bioregulator and the thymus gland bioregulator, which is the seat of immunity.

And the third group that got the two bioregulators had a 33 percent all cause mortality rate versus the polyvitamin group that had an 88 percent all cause mortality rate. And the people who got the epitalon were somewhere in the middle.  I think what's more relevant to your audience, even though nobody wants to die, so this is still interesting, even though it's not sleep related, is that in those, all those cases, their sleep improved, their melatonin production normalized,  right?

And it helped to regulate their circadian cycle. And we know that if we regulate our circadian cycle, if we can get it back in line, guess what? All these other things start to fall into place. Better immunity, better bone density, better sense of wellbeing. Better cognitive health, all the things start to follow.

And I think, you know, when I think about epitalon and all of its downstream effects, I think this is what Mollie's talking about. Like you got to get your sleep so that. Yes, all these other benefits can happen. Sure. And you said that you think that this one is something that might have more accessibility based on some of the changes?

Yeah. So essentially what's happened and by the time this airs, I'm sure that people, I mean, anybody who's, who's interested in peptides and who's been in the peptide space for a while will have heard about this. It's been, there's been noise brewing about the FDA targeting peptides. for a long, long time.

And to be fair, they've been picking them off one at a time. A couple of years, I think it was a year or two ago, they declared that the F that compounding pharmacies would no longer be able to synthesize a peptide called thymus and alpha one, which is. nothing short of a tragedy. Thymosin Alpha 1 is, is actually a medic, it's, it's an approved medication in 30 countries around the world.

Um, and it's been shown to be dramatically helpful for people with any kind of autoimmune issue, any kind of immune dysfunction. It's helpful for, um, For people, it, it actually, there's a study, a human trial that was done with elderly people getting, I think it was a flu vaccine or something, and showed that when they were given Thymosin Alpha 1 as an adjuvant with the vaccine, they mounted a better immune response to the vaccine, so it actually did something for them, right?

Right. I mean, and not that vaccine, I know vaccines a bad word these days, but nevertheless, you know, if let's say we're going to, uh, uh, Attribute any value to a vaccine and why wouldn't we want it to work, right? Give it a shot. Just putting it out there. Right. So as we get older, our immune system starts to fail and which is why elderly people don't do as well with vaccines because their immune system is kind of exhausted, kind of lying on the couch going, yeah, whatever.

We're good.  Right? What a great visual. Yeah.  We're fine. It's okay. No, no, no. Harvey. You don't need to do anything about this. You're good.  This provides a whole new way of thinking about vaccines. Thank you. Where have you been? It's amazing. I know. Anyway, so, so thymus and alpha one was the first one they really went after thymus and beta four.

a second thymus peptide. Uh, they declared that was a biologic. That went out the window. And as of 48 hours ago, they've basically delivered a letter to all compounding pharmacies, essentially saying they are no longer allowed to produce any of BPC 157, CJC, ipramiralin, dihexa, motsi, GHK copper, like none of these peptides are to be  manufactured in combating pharmacies anymore, which is,  I'm going to say it's nothing short of a tragedy.

And I'm not speaking for the biohackers here. I'm not even speaking for, um, like bodybuilders who historically, these are the people who brought us peptides in the first place, really. Yeah.  Um, I'm speaking for people with chronic illness who are working with functional medicine doctors who have seen results with these compounds that nobody's been able to deliver to them with drugs.

And so it's, it's a sad day, you know, but it is a call to arms for all of us. Like this is a wake up call. I'm probably  the most, and you know me, I'm the most middle of the road person on the planet. I can't stand confrontation. Yeah. I'm like. I don't believe in any of these conspiracy things. I'm like, no, no, no, everybody's got everybody's best interest at heart, la, la, la.

And I'm sitting there going now going, you know what guys, we got to do something like wow, people are going to have to stand up and say, this is not okay. Because the irony is that the people they've taken these peptides away from are the doctors.  Thank you. The medical, the functional doctors who are actually doing all this amazing work with people with chronic illness, with, with issues that nobody seems to be able to solve any other way.

And, and they are not the ones who are going to go underground to get their stuff because they can't afford it. They can't afford to lose  their medical license. They can't, you know, the  reality of the world is that people will always find a way to get their hands on what they want. Yeah. Um,  The bad news is that they've removed access to the very people we need to have them so that they can continue to do the work that allows us to learn and to understand how to use these things.

So the bioregulators. Live in their own little world over here because what's, what I mentioned earlier is that they are, they are extract of tissues, glands, and organs of animals. Right. So what does this sound like a bit? This sounds a bit like desiccated thyroid or that adrenal desiccated adrenal supplement that you're, you're functional or naturopath might've given you at some point.

And so yeah.  The, the bioregulators are available as capsules that are those extracts. And so they're, they are classified as nutritional supplements.  Okay. So that's the workaround right now. For now. But the problem is that there's, you can get bioregulators in two forms. You can get the natural supplement, which is an extract from an animal, or you can get it where it's a synthetic.

And the synthetic is when they've isolated that amino acid chain and it's been re  synthesized in an, in a lab. And now it can be reintroduced into the body either as a subcutaneous injection or as a sublingual spray. The bad news is that we may lose access to the sublingual sprays as well as the sub Q injections because they are now considered.

Drugs because they've been synthesized in a lab. Oh, wow Okay. All right late breaking news. Well, we'll have to hurt it here first. Yes We'll have to try to get this prioritized getting this out so that to your point we can begin to Actually fight back or take a stand around this new Regulation change and hope that we can make a dent in the the legislation for this And the positioning I I just think that it's Yeah, I think that, you know, hopefully there's, and I know I'm not even American, I'm in Canada, so I'm not in a real position to do much, but I have to say, and we have our own issues here.

You know, we have a government that's gone after natural health supplements altogether. So Sure. We've, we've got our problems here as well, and it's, it's disappointing because quite apart from how useful peptides may be for people with sleep issues, um, you know, like even a peptide like thymus and alpha one, which is, has also very strong anti inflammatory properties.

Inflammation is something that could stand in the way of sleep or a BPC one, five, seven, that may be helpful with chronic pain or some kind of injury or pain issue. Again, If we can address the inflammation and the pain and calm the system down, people can sleep better. Some, and I mean, you talk about this on your podcast all the time.

The number of reasons why people's sleep is disrupted is endless. Yes. Right. So, you know, the pharmaceutical industry's answer is  take a sleeping pill. The fact of the matter is that if we don't address the inflammation, the pain,  the dysregulation of the immune system or whatever the case may be, the nervous system can't calm down enough to allow us to get the quality sleep that we need so that we can heal.

Right. Such a puzzle. And I mean, the amount of people that we've seen with, say, for instance, you know, topic over the past couple of years with COVID or long COVID and then being benefited by some of these peptide stacks, TBI, as you alluded to really being aided in that journey of more out of the box approaches.

And then of course, all of these other systemic issues that might be at the root. of our difficulties with our sleep and not having the toolkit is really, really frustrating. Okay. So one of the things we might be able to learn from is you, how you're even thinking about this and navigating your own sleep.

And so we do always ask every person that comes on the podcast for questions about how they're navigating their sleep. And I'd be curious, you know, how peptides work into this and other things that you might be doing. And I know you said you just recorded a solo podcast on all things sleep. So for anyone that is interested.

then they can go check that out, go in deeper. Okay. That's all. Yeah. That's almost embarrassing being on the Empress of Sleeps podcast saying I recorded a solo episode on sleep. I'm kind of like, Oh my God, that's so embarrassing. Oh, please. I want to check that out. I'm forever curious. So to all approaches sleep, that's one thing that's been so cool, especially about the four questions is that each person brings on a new something that is just.

totally, sometimes totally unexpected or just like this great reminder underscore of, Oh yeah, I'm not doing that. Like, let me test that. Let me bring that in. So, okay. So we ask everyone starting with what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now? And that could include anything you might be taking or, you know, just things we might want to be aware of that you're  Sure.

So, I mean, so I will say about the peptides, I can't use the growth hormone secretive drugs because I'm actually allergic to them. So they're not part of my sleep routine. Important asterisks, right? Yes. Little asterisks there. And then for epitalon, you, it's like I said before, it's not a sedative. So it's kind of like a,  a global  thing you might do for your circadian rhythm.

So, and I've used epitalon and I will use, I will cycle on and off epitalon a few times a year. So I'll do like a It's a 10 day cycle every once in a while. And what's important at that point is to make sure that you're, you're leaning into your sleep hygiene and your sleep routines, because if you're fighting your sleep and you're taking a piddle on at the same time, nothing good's going to happen.

Your brain's not going to blow up or anything, but you're not going to get the benefit of it. So  it's not a side effect.  So for me.  You know, what I strive to do and because I've been exceptionally  bogged down in work lately, and I'm working very hard to change that, you know, I'm, I'm at least trying to wear my blue blockers because I'm working too late.

Yeah, I get it. So, you know, I'm trying to, the nice thing is I moved into a new house. My new house has a deck, an outdoor deck off my bedroom, so I can open that door and see morning light. Nice. First thing every morning. If there is no morning light when I wake up, like there wasn't this morning, I have my red light panel in my bathroom.

I'll flip that on. And I, at least I'm getting this red light first thing in the morning  before, you know, and of course looking at the phone is always the, the magnet. And I'm like, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope.  And, and we all struggle with this, right? It's literally at this point, I don't think any of us could say we're not addicted to our phone.

Yeah. Absolutely. By design. Yeah. Yeah, so the, the, the, the battle is real. The struggle is real. Yes. Staying off the phone before bed is tough, and I do my best, but I definitely have those blue blockers on just to help to minimize the light. And you know what's interesting? is when you get used to blocking the blue light at night.

It's amazing how jarring it is when you don't have your glasses with you. Have you found that? Oh yeah. Like I find like the light literally hurts my eyes. It's the worst. I know. And then when you find yourself out and about in like normal life where people are meeting up for, you know, dinner at seven or whatever people do.

Eight. I know. I have this thing I'm going to in a couple weeks that starts at 9 p. m. And I'm like, no, I have to mentally prepare in advance. Crazy. But yes, when you find yourself in those environments, it's like a target or something. And it, you know, it's suddenly, it's so bright, like a big box superstore or something.

And yeah, very alarming. So you're bringing those in to make sure that you're doing as much to support that circadian rhythm. The, the meal timing for me is huge. You know, I figured out a long time ago that I've got to stop eating a good three hours before bed so that I can get to sleep. And then my sleep stack, if you will, yes, it kind of varies a little bit, but definitely magnesium is always a big part of it.

Um, spermidine  very often plays a role in it. Um, I'm really a big, big fan of, I don't know if you know this, um, Leslie's brand, but primidine is, Oh sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this incredible, um, food derived spermidine, which I think is quite important. Yeah. Um, so the magnesium kind of helps you to calm down the spermidine.

One neat little stack, little thing that I'll do, um, is although I know it's a little bit of food, but I'll take a couple of tablespoons of yogurt, plain yogurt, and I'll break open three capsules of the original version of the spermidine in there. I'll put in five grams of glycine and I'll swish it around.

Put a bunch of cinnamon on it and eat. So it's literally one or two tablespoons of yogurt. And I'll eat that like half an hour before bed and use it to wash down my magnesium.  Love it. Sleep like a baby. And then the other thing that I'm doing for my sleep, and this is going to sound weird, so forgive me folks, but number one, my new bedroom doesn't have blackout blinds.

So I have to sleep with a sleep mask. Yes. Um, now if you ever were to hang out with Mollie and see her before bed.  She had some kind of a weird sleep tent the last time I saw her, but I think it got left behind at the Airbnb. It was not a hit.  Yeah. But I should do a whole episode on that, actually. Yes.  But the other thing is, what I found over the last couple of months is I wear noise cancelling headphones.

Yeah. Listen, guys, it's weird, but it forces me to sleep on my back, which actually isn't a bad thing because it makes, it means I don't squish my face, which apparently is very bad for your skin or something. Yes. And because you put all this product on your face before bed and then, and then you smoosh your face in the pillow and it's gone.

Where does it go?  But the noise canceling headphones  has been  biggest game changer in my sleep in the longest time. Really? Wow. Shocking. Yeah. Hmm. Is there, like, noise in your space or just to kind of get into a restful  zen mode? So,

yeah, so is awful. Oh my gosh. Now he does snore sometimes, so the snoring obviously is, is a deal breaker when it comes to my sleep. For me, I'm a very light sleeper. But even when we're trying to fall asleep, you know, and we're doing the snuggle and all I can hear is the air going in and out of my ear from him.

breathing, like really, like, why do you have to bring, be so noisy when you breathe, which is a horrible thing to say to the poor guy, like he's breathing, you know, needs to  breathe. So I just slap those headphones on. It's not super sexy. I'm not going to lie, but I get the best sleep. That is hysterical. So, a couple things.

One, our top performing episode now, number one, for a while, has been ranking up there, which is with Dr. Wendy Trexel, and she is an expert in a sleep divorce, or known as, she's trying to rebrand it into Sleep Alliance, and making the argument that it's actually going to be beneficial to our relationships if we create, you know, kind of separate sleep environments to handle.

Whatever might be going on, whether it's, you know, sleep scheduling issues, or if we're kind of sorting out maybe breathing disorder issues, so snoring, upper air resistance syndrome, sleep apnea, et cetera, et cetera. And then I wonder, has he tried, we might've talked about this, has he tried the Excite OSA, which is, so Excite OSA might be interesting for him, but it's FDA cleared for snoring and mild sleep apnea.

And actually my husband uses that and it's very funny. He gets all kinds of, he gets made fun of about. What is Mollie having you do with your tongue? So it's basically, it's like a tens unit for your tongue.  It's a daytime treatment for your sleep. So really fascinating. And so you just put on it, like he'll be playing video games or, you know, whatever he's doing.

And then he'll have that in for about 20 minutes. And then what it's doing is strengthening your tongue and it is cleared to. minimize snoring and alleviate mild sleep apnea. And it's in my understanding is it's in clinical trials for moderate sleep apnea right now. So hopefully that has some favorable results.

But one of many things that are coming out for snoring in the event that you're not wanting to wear those, uh, headphones for life, but it sounds like a good hack for now. Okay. Got it. It works for now. That's for now. And I've, I've had, um, you know, I've had the, like a mattress cooling device on my mattress.

That, that's really great. The only thing with that one is the one I used to have one before. Then I got a new one that I didn't realize was much more powerful than the first one. Yes.  I, I thought I was going to get hypothermia a couple of times, like, and when you're like, and you don't want to get up and look at your phone because you're like, no, no, no, I don't want to look at my phone in the night, but you, like, I was literally, I was running around looking for clothes,  like create a buffer between me and my mattress.

But once you get that dialed in, yeah.  It's a really nice, it's a great piece of the puzzle when it comes to sleep. And what I found, and I'm sure you find as well, is it's, it is for each one of us,  it's a puzzle, right? It's what are the, what are, like another thing that I found can be really helpful for sleep sometimes is just a capful of ketone esters right before bed.

Yeah, huge. So wild. And there's all kinds of, you know, kind of, um, anecdotal shares online where, um, one in particular, Ketone Aid has an entire like Facebook group and highlight reels where they're just showing tons of people taking screenshots of improved sleep stats. So looking forward to having more studies to support what people seem to be finding, which is this.

benefit to sleep. And it's always this like Goldilocks of like, not too much to get you all amped up and not too little to not have to live effects. But many, many people I've seen measurable changes in or ring stats, woo, bio strap, et cetera, with that. So that's a great one. You know, it's interesting, especially whenever I have a client whose blood sugar is dropping in the night.

Yes. It can be because it, it kind of like, it's like this bridge. Yep.  Totally. For the brain. Right. Um, another one that's interesting that I don't particularly use, but I have used on occasion with clients is there's this powder it's called, um, it's, it's called generation you can, and it's a type of starch.

That is used by endurance athletes, but what it is, is it, it, it breaks down very, very slowly in the gut. And so imagine that you have just enough glucose supply to the brain to keep it happy through the night. That's so it's an, it's a really interesting hack. It's got, um, it's got a special name, the starch.

It's been a while since I've looked at it, but it's, that's another really cool little Tool that people can play around with a little bit and then if you need to go for a big run after you can  have more have it all. Great. Yeah, I could do it all.  So for me, really it's that that sleep stack, whether I'm doing the yogurt or not, I don't do it every day.

Another, um, tool I will use if I've had like a big workout that day. Mm-Hmm. . If I do the ketone aid quite often, I'll also take some essential amino acids before bed. Sure. And that seems to be really, really good for sleep. And I don't know if it's just that it gives your body the building materials for repair overnight.

Yeah. Now of course it is. If you're an avid, faster. Technically, it's protein. It is technically breaking your fast, but I'm also a person that believes that, you know, there's a time and a place for fasting. It's not going to be every day all the time. Right. Definitely want to get it in. Um, but sometimes in the name of better sleep.

We're gonna we're gonna do something a little different. Oh, totally. Absolutely. Oh, I love these and the generation you can. I have not tested that. So I'm really excited to learn more. And then the next question would be what might we see in your morning quote unquote sleep routine with the argument that how we start our day can impact our sleep.

And I already got a bit of a window into it sounds like your morning routine with getting out on the new deck, which sounds amazing. But what might we see there? So again, that red light panel , it's my, it's actually in the washroom, right? So it's my light source first thing in the morning and last night at night.

Love that. So I just don't turn on the lights. I just use my panel, which I love. Right. Um, and so it's going to be, again, like that, that, that devotion to not opening that phone for as long as possible in the morning. Yeah. Seeing the morning light if I can, and. You know, I don't have a massive sleep morning routine in the sense that I'm usually flying out the door trying to get to the gym or do whatever it is I need to do.

Um, but also if I'm not going to the gym, I'm trying to take my dog for a walk just to, again, just to get outside and, and ease into the day. Because I've listened to enough of your talks to know that my sleep routine begins first thing in the morning when  my, you know, staying away from sunglasses has become a mission of mine.

Yeah.  years now and has saved me thousands of dollars of lost sunglasses. Right. Exactly.  The problem of yesterday. Yes, totally. So last year, like sunglasses, please.  That's amazing. Especially being up in Canada too, to leverage that. Like when we are dealing with those challenges in the winter months when it's not as powerful.

So the fact that you are having some of those supports, we just interviewed both Spurdy for the Spurdy lamp to that lamp that generates vitamin D. And then we also have coming up is um, Chroma D. And so Chroma is another company that now they're only the second lamp that I've been able to discover that can create vitamin D from a lamp, but they also add in red light.

So they're exciting. And so highly recommend for people in those Northern Latitude locations to check those out. Cause to your point, like you're trying to gobble up some of the times in the sun, but then even there's so much stretch of time that we're not able to produce sufficient vitamin D because of that poor strength of the sun during those months.

So that's a great way to have it all. So love that. And then what might we see on your night? stand or maybe proverbial nightstand. I know you travel a ton. So what might be there either on your home nightstand or when you're out and about, what do you make sure you have? So I have a new thingy on my  nightstand.

Okay. Which I should, I need to tell you about and if I could remember the name of it, it will be in the show notes folks. Okay. But it's a very cool phone stand that you slide your phone into that blocks.  All of the EMF, all of the, everything from your phone coming out, out the front and charges your phone at the same time, made in Israel.

It starts with a knee and I cannot. It might be LV. I don't know. I'll  get you the name. I'll get you introduced to them. Now. I mean, I'm going to put my phone on airplane mode anyway, when it's in my room, but I think that I think something has to be on for my, my, my mattress cooling device, which is, you know, it's a bit of a trade off, but I feel like I have enough of the quantum.

Um, and I just actually just yesterday got a grounding sheet that I've put on my bed. So I can't report back yet. Yes. But grounding sheets are supposed to be a game changer for sleep. So  to be continued, great to be continued. So on my nightstand, you'll see that you're not going to see much, um, because, well, there's my sleep mask and my.

your headphones. Yeah.

Got it. Yes.

Oh, the one that we were both. Okay. Perfect. Yeah. The  mitozen cream. Um, so it's a really cool face cream. It's got melatonin. So funny story about that. When I first got it, I was like, Oh, it's blue. So it's got GHK copper and it's got all kinds of neat. Botanicals and whatnot in it. So I would use it in the morning  and I was like falling flat on my face kind of early in the afternoon.

And I was like, I don't understand why I'm so tired these days. Like I never lack energy, right? And all of a sudden I look at the ingredients on because I'm like, wait a minute, really big into melatonin. I'm reading the bottle and the first ingredient is melatonin. Oh my gosh. And transdermal  melatonin is a thing.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And so now I use it. And you know, I mean, I still use all my other stuff for my face, but I will use it as the last step at night. Oh my gosh. You know what's so funny is I keep mine in the refrigerator and I so, I haven't gotten a good system because I keep forgetting it because it's in there and it's just in a whole different section.

I need one of those, I don't know if you've seen those bathroom cute little refrigerators now that are a thing. No. Are they? Yeah, they're like these cute little tiny cubes. So I think I need to get one of those, especially for you with all your peptides and what have you. It'd be cool. I'm all, well, so mine's been sitting on my counter.

I hope it's okay, but I am.  That's probably, I mean, the fact that we have air conditioning, it's not that hot. Yeah, it's good.  Okay. So then. The last question will be, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game, or said another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your own sleep?

Hmm, that's a good one.  I mean, there've been a few, honestly, there've been a few things in stages, right? Sure. Um, one thing that I haven't mentioned yet, and I won't even mention the name, but I will say to people, if you've been sleeping on the same mattress for 20 years. Yeah. It's time.  Totally. Getting a good mattress is, and we don't talk about it enough, right?

We're talking about all the other stuff. And sometimes you're talking to a client and you're like, What about your mattress? And they're like, Oh my God, I love my mattress. We got it when we got married. And I'm like, didn't you just say that you like just celebrated your 25th wedding anniversary?  Hold in the story.

Wait a minute. So having an amazing mattress and I made that change a couple of years ago and it was, it honestly made a massive difference next to getting that, that bed cooling device,  I will say made another huge, it was like, these are like. Big leaps, right? And then the other big leap I would say is meal timing.

I grew up eating very late. And my poor husband, when we first got married, like, I'd be like, no, I'm Mediterranean. We don't eat till eight or 830 at night. And the poor guy's  like, but that's really late. I'm like,  it's fine. We're fine. And, and when I finally got on the bandwagon of figuring out, actually, maybe not so much.

Yeah. Huge difference. Huge. Oh my goodness. I know when we had Dr. Sachin Panda on the podcast recently, that was so great to be able to go in more deeply with some of the research that he's found of the. effects that that has on our circadian health and our sleep quality. But, um, I think it's just something that's emerging, especially with wearables.

I mean, it becomes so clear. I see time and time again where there, it can almost look akin sometimes for some people to similar to what we see with alcohol when people have, you know, like a large amount of food that they're having and then also the food type as well. But we can see these big shoots up in their heart rate and then drops in HRV often uptick in some way, shape or form.

and temperature. Respiratory rate often going up. Sometimes affecting blood oxygen because, especially if there's pre existing sleep apnea, then we know meal timing is a strategy to lower the number of apneas if you move that meal timing back. And of course the inverse happening if you have it later. So really important.

Love that. And did we miss anything out of all, I know this is a huge topic and we only just scratched the surface. and late breaking information, but is there anything that we want to make sure we leave the listener with? The last thing I'll say actually on the peptide front is anybody listening to this who's using the GLP 1 agonists, like the Ozempics, keep in mind that your, your, your stomach emptying is delayed.

Right. One of the ways that these compounds work is that they delay the clearance of food out of your stomach. So, although you're probably not eating big meal as big meals,  make sure that you really provide enough time before bed.  Um, cause you might need a little extra time up to allow for a bit more time before you go to bed.

Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you said that because I have seen now many people on these peptides where they've seen a reliable drop in HRV and yeah, that's the thing. Would you put it the food timing piece or other elements you would a bigger topic? Okay, go ahead. It's a whole other thing. So what one of the things, sorry guys, it was a fake goodbye.

We apologize. One more thing.  We were just talking about that. Like when you're wearing your snowsuit and your parents say five more minutes. Yeah, exactly. Get into all other conversation. Anyway, you have the  best visuals.  You're a little kid. Anyway, for the GLP monogamous. You will see for mutton. I think almost everybody, I don't know that anybody gets away with not seeing this.

You're going to see a drop in HRV. You're going to see an increase in your resting heart rate. Um, and everything's going to go up. Why? Why? Because one of the mechanisms of action is to boost your resting metabolic rate. Right.  Got it. If the furnace is burning hotter.  Everything's got to ramp up with it.

And on top of that, you've got this delayed gastric emptying. So, to the point where I just saw an article in a journal somewhere, I think it was an anesthesiology journal, where they were talking about being mindful of patients who were coming in for surgery. who were on GLP 1 agonists because, because they need people to be empty.

And so they're so much slower on gastric emptying that they are actually starting to have to take that into account. So, so be mindful that one, and it's not a bad thing, you know, it's not terrible. It's just a thing to keep in mind. So number one, don't lose your mind because your metrics are off. Okay.

Unfortunately, it comes with the territory.  The good news is that for most people, their sleep does improve or it gets better. It's just those metrics are kind of off for a while. And maybe that's one of the reasons why  we don't want to see them as a permanent solution. Yeah. Maybe that's one of the reasons why we really want to, you know, and this is a whole other podcast, but we really wanted to lean into all of the ways that we can build better habits and create an environment where we can eventually let them go that there's, you know, and then no criticism or judgment for people using them because honestly they've been a game changer and a lifesaver for so many people.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm glad you called that out because it just speaks to the nuance of these things because that can be a hard thing for people to reconcile, especially the people that are in this optimization kind of conversation and then to see that it's challenging. So thank you for providing a little bit of that background of the why and then maybe some long term goals of what we're looking to set ourselves up for.

Okay, so I know we've only just scratched the surface and it's clear that for anyone listening and I And I think that sometimes it can feel like a whole other language, these peptides and what have you. Yeah. Well, you're this bridge for us, which is so helpful. So for anyone that then wants to learn more and you really make it accessible for people, how can they follow you learn more about what your offerings are and be a part of your world?

Thanks, Mollie. So, the best, if you only have four seconds to listen, left to listen to me, it's just go to natnidham. com. If you go to my website, everything's there. If you have an extra second for me, then at Natalie Nidham on Instagram, lots there, which will, which will connect you to my podcast. Podcast, which is the biohacking superhuman performance podcast.

And then if you're thinking that you really do want to spend and hang out with, spend more time and hang out with me. Um, I have a membership community on my, on Mighty Networks called the BSP community, and you can learn about that on my website.  So it's kind of ground, ground zero. And then I've got a newsletter where we're always, there's always a little tidbit about peptides in the newsletter.

There's always information about the podcast and some of the biohacks, biohacks, you know, I don't think it's quite as encyclopedic as yours,  your sleep newsletter is quite a work of art. But, uh,  Long winded is the name of the game over here for me. We're trying to keep up with you.  I can't believe we even kept our podcast into this period of time.

This is record breaking people, but really, really fantastic. I know you put up such incredible content and you've actually, I've worked with some clients that have come my way through the work that you've done in the world of, you know, sharing all that you've got to offer. And so I've heard just incredible things about people that have been in your.

So I get to hear it from many resources or vantage points. So love the work you're doing and definitely follow her on all the things and more goodness come in. We're also going to be speaking in a couple, you know, spots coming up soon, dragon fly and other things. So stay tuned all, but thank you so much for taking the time.

It means a lot. Well, thank you, Mollie. This has been a pleasure. Always a pleasure hanging out with you. Thank you so much. Aw, fantastic.  You've been listening to The Sleep Is A Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet.

Fun Facts. I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting. And it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleepisaskill. com forward slash newsletter to sign up. 

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