167: Jules Goldberg, Founder of SnoreLab & SnoreGym, Apps That Identify Snoring Severity & Gamify Its Reduction! (Send To Someone Who Snores!)

 Welcome to the Sleep as a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world looks.

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Thinks about sleep. Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper Ultimately. I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before. 

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Welcome to the sleep is a skill podcast over here at sleep is a skill. We are committed to providing this intersection of technology, accountability, and behavioral change in some of your endeavors in improving your sleep results. And on that technology side of things, it is mind blowing. Some of the things that are available at a wildly affordable cost, for example,  Now there's lots of different sleep apps, and today we're going to speak with a founder who has created three sleep apps that you absolutely need to know about.

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Now, first off, I'm going to share with you his initial kind of flagship app that he created years ago, snore lab. And unequivocally, if you snore, if you know someone that snores,  you need to know about and download this app, SnoreLab, and test it out tonight, ideally. But we'll also share with you some of the other exciting apps that he is a part of, creating, and so much more.

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So a little bit about our guests. Jules Goldberg is the founder of Sleepwave. He has created other top rated sleep apps that are a part of the Braviva Softworks portfolio, including the acclaimed SnoreLab, as I mentioned. Most recently, he developed and launched Motionscape, an immersive relaxation app with a passion for engineering.

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Jules pioneered snoring detection in apps and subsequently patented the motion sensing technology that powers Sleepwave. He is a self taught developer who is passionate about creating apps that have a positive impact and solve real world problems. Jules created his first app, SnoreLab, in 2012,  armed with only a laptop and a headphone.

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Full of ideas. The app has since had over 13 million downloads and has helped countless people around the world with their sleep and snoring issues. The company is fully bootstrapped with no external investors. Jewel studied at the university of Cambridge. He lives in London with his wife and two children.

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Another thing we did get into in this episode is also snore gym, which I think is really important to be aware of. It's kind of this. Sister app to snore lab, and it helps you perform certain exercises that could be supportive of reducing some of the severity around snoring and sleep apnea. Now, of course, this is not a treatment fully for sleep apnea, but this could be using conjunction with a treatment plan.

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So there's a lot of gems in this episode, but absolutely check out some of these apps and we're going to get into all of them. All the nitty gritty of how these could be really, really helpful for you in your journey of understanding what are some of the factors that might be flaring up some of your snoring or your partner snoring.

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What are some of the behavioral changes that you could bring in to make a difference with some of those results? And then of course, raise red flags if there is the need to test for things like sleep apnea or other sleep disorders. And then of course, sleep wave is one of the newer apps. That is aiming to help track your sleep.

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And we get into all that and so much more. So let's get into the episode, but first a couple important words from our sponsors and our sponsors do really keep this podcast going. So please take a moment to hear about some of the sponsors that are supporting this podcast and check out some of their offerings because that really does make a difference. 

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If you're listening to this podcast, you're likely looking to improve your sleep. And one of the first places that many people begin when they talk to me about sleep is they want to know what's the supplement I can take. Well, I got to say, I honestly don't take that many supplements nowadays for my sleep.

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And Moonbird leverages the science of heart rate variability or HRV, which, you know, we're talking about all the time on this podcast. And it leverages it in a way to combat sleep disturbances caused by by stress. This innovative device isn't just for relaxation, it's a tool to activate your body's natural sleep mechanism.

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So according to a significant study in psychophysiology in 2015,  paced breathing, which is facilitated by something like Moonbird, was found to significantly increase vagal activity. This directly impacts your parasympathetic system. system leading to improve sleep quality. It's about making tangible physiological changes for better sleep.

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Now Moonbird goes beyond being just a sleep aid. It's a scientifically grounded tool for managing stress and achieving deeper, more restorative sleep. Now for listeners who want to transform their sleep patterns, Moonbird combines cutting edge technology with proven scientific strategies. So you can visit moonbird.

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life and use the code sleep as a skill for a special discount. And just a quick aside, I am using my Moonbird every single day and it's made a profound difference in how I'm managing my stress and improving my own ability to manage my health and wellbeing through heart rate variability technology.  If you want great sleep, you've got to get your temperature right, which is why I'm so grateful to have partnered with Muslim comfort home of the viral temperature regulating 365 blanket created by a real mom battling postpartum night sweats.

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And welcome to the sleep of the skill podcast. I am so excited for this conversation for a number of reasons, but one how this podcast kind of began this episode, I should say began was because I was so excited to speak with some of the creators of snore lab, which is an app that I suggest for people all the time.

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And yet not only are we going to be talking about that, but then we're going to be talking about new things that they're up to or that they've been working on. It's new to me. And maybe new to you listening. And so we're going to learn a lot, but this is definitely a group that's looking to take on this topic of sleep in an entirely new way.

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So get excited. And having said that, Jules, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. 

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It is a pleasure to be here and to be able to share the passion with people who are passionate and interested because, yeah, sleep is fascinating. We're spending a third of our lives. sleeping. It impacts so much of our world and it is great to be here and to talk.

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All about sleep and technology and snoring and lots of other things. 

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Oh, fantastic. Well, you've come to the right place to look for people that are interested in specifically sleep, but also kind of unique and innovative ways that they might be able to look at sleep beyond just some of standard top 10 things to do, you know, bring in lavender.

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I'm always hating on poor lavender. Uh, but we're really looking at some out of the box ways of understanding and getting kind of a snapshot of how our sleep is performing. So maybe you can kind of just start at the beginning and share how in the world did you find yourself kind of at the crux of this real technological set of advancements in the area of sleep?

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Yeah, so, um,  it all began one kind of cold December night in 2011, and  I'd fallen very peacefully asleep, and I'm woken up  by my wife telling me that I was snoring terribly, and I just did not believe her, you know, she, it was, what she was describing was so extreme, the noise that I was making, I could not believe it, and, um,  so I thought I'll look for an app.

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Um, as you do when you have want to understand something, and this was very early in the days of apps and  actually, to my amazement, there wasn't a good app to do what I wanted to do, which was to record snoring to measure snoring to discover ways, test solutions and find something to reduce your snoring. 

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And.  You know, in that moment, I just had a brainwave and, and, and saw so clearly the potential for a product, an app.  And I said to my wife, I've had the best idea, um, an app to record and measure snoring. Let's take all our savings and let's give it to a developer who can build this app for us. 

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Um, 

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because I, I knew nothing about building apps.

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I, this wasn't my work. This wasn't my world. I'd never written any code in my life.  And she said, That is an amazing idea, but don't you dare touch our money.  And all I'm going to let you spend is for a laptop. Um, and you can do it yourself. She said, like, this will be a nice project for you. 

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Amazing. 

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And it was the best advice anybody could have given me because  I dived into this project and discovered something that I absolutely loved and, you know,  had a talent for, I suppose. Um, and  yeah, so I still kind of pinch myself on this, but over the course of 10 months, you know, I actually self taught coding and built entirely myself the first version. 

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Um, so, and this included sound recordings, snoring analysis, interface, trends,  alarm clock, like UI,  you know, I managed to build this whole thing.  And there was nothing like out of the box to use, like nowadays you can. There's components you can use. Sure. You build thing from, you know, the level of, of like buffers of audio and having to write algorithms and like reading research and managed to kind of create this app.

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Um,  and yeah, so it launched, uh, the end of 2012  and yeah, it's obviously been a great success. Um, and has, you know, clocked up, you know, more than 13 million downloads over the year.  

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Amazing. And it's just like helped like millions and millions of people.  And  yeah, it was really built.  to give people that snapshot.

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Um, this is one of the things I think the app does really, really well. I wanted to take people into that world that they can't see and to give them a real like visual interactive way to see, explore, and hear their story.  And,  um,  yeah, and to make it kind of almost, you know, kind of serious, but also a little bit fun, you know, it's a, it's a bit of a fun side to it as well.

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And,  With the goal of really helping people test out products, see the impact of lifestyle, alcohol, lots of things, and how it affected their snoring.  And, yeah, that's the essential product, and, um, yeah, it's been much loved by many people, it's recommended by many doctors, obviously we've grown a lot since then, um, and now the a team of about 13 people, you know, working with me.

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Um, and we've expanded into a whole kind of suite of apps, which I'll, I'll talk more about afterwards. Um,  but yeah, Snorlab was a real kind of.  you know, a passion, um,  and a kind of obsession, I suppose, you know, quite obsessive when I apply myself to something.  

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I can relate to that. 

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Yeah. Yeah. Like, and, um, yeah, I'm really kind of, you know, Kind of honored to have kind of brought that to the world and helped a lot of people.

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Oh, so important. Well, one, it's really helpful for me to know this kind of background because I have shared, particularly Snorlab, for many, many years for so many people. It's been really the crux of my life. That or part of the impetus, I think, to finally get a number of people to see, Oh, okay. This really is a problem quantifiably enough to then take the life changing action to bring this information, you know, in their hands to their doctors and get tested, or even just in the comfort of their own home since, you know, advancements with at home settings.

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Sleep testing, right? And then they've got this, they're available to show themselves that they have a problem now. So they're in and of itself so huge, but to your point, you made such a good point as well about this product suite that you've also created a further ways to really remedy or support some of these challenges in their sleep.

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So I guess one underscoring for anyone listening, if you suspect that So if you suspect that you snore or your partner snores, I've got my thumbs up. She's on my zoom call. Don't mind that for anyone watching the video to say, Oh, there we go. Perfect. Thumbs up all around. So if you suspect that you're snoring, so we've got a lot of clients that are single They don't know, they're not getting this feedback and so they're not sure.

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So this can be a great, fantastic and affordable way. What is it? Like a couple bucks or something? 

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Yeah, it's really, really very cheap. I mean, it used to be, look, now it's, it's, um, it's more now we're charging like $30 for a year. Per year. Exactly. 

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Come on. It's, 

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it's nothing. It's peanut much. It's nothing.

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Yeah. You know what? You can even use it quite well for free. Um, and this is, you know, there is a very, it's, it's very, very cheap. Yes.  And part of that is me wanting to make it accessible. Absolutely. And, you know, really, you know, giving people these tools. I mean, we're not, we don't have kind of big shareholders or anything.

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Right. You know, it's very much, this is a project I'm out of kind of love and we reinvest the proceeds into building new, really cool stuff. Ah. Um, so, uh,  yeah. Um,  so yeah, uh, yeah, I think it's pretty exciting.  Yeah, and it's giving people, as I said, that picture into what we can't see. And there is a real like, wow moment, which the app gives.

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And, you know, it was a very wow moment that I had myself when I first built it. 

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Yeah. 

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And.  You know, wow, I could not believe, like,  the sound I was making, how it was possible. And, um, yeah, so it was real, really, being a fantastic journey. Really 

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powerful, too. And so for anyone listening that hasn't tried SnoreLab, one snoring, is a huge signal for us that there's something not working about our sleep and we want to get more information about to what degree are we snoring.

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And I think it's also one of the things that you're apt to so beautifully is showing the dynamic nature of snoring because sometimes we might think, well, it's the same every night, but no, very much. You'll see different readouts, right? And then you get to see some of these. Things that can impact your results.

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So I'm curious if you can share a bit about, and I think that's part of what your product suite then evolved into are all these ways that we can actually get in there to transform some of these. Yeah. So if you can share a little bit about that. 

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Yeah, sure. Well, I think my own journey is, is quite an interesting one.

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Yeah. Um,  you know, I really didn't know what was going on. Um, I saw very clearly some patterns, uh, on my charts in my data, how it changed. over time, how it changed with the seasons. I could hear very clearly that it was related to my nose. Um, I wasn't someone who,  uh, was sleeping with my mouth open, which can be a big snoring trigger.

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I wasn't someone who was overweight, which is a very big snoring trigger. It was very much related to my nose. And, um,  And I tried the first thing I did was some of the most accessible products, which are sold for storing things like nasal strips, which like open up your nose. I thought, surely, right. I can hear it through my nose.

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I'll open up my nose. And the amazing thing was that this actually made it worse  completely the opposite effect for me. And  it's, actually took me quite a few years to really kind of figure out  exactly what was happening. I had suspicions and then also to find something which did really work for me. And, um,  so I've kind of discovered or kind of self diagnosed really, um, with, um, condition, which is called vasomotor rhinitis.

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And what that is, is a kind of like non, um, allergic rhinitis. So it's an inflammation of the nose and kind of the pharynx and nasopharynx and it really flares up for me, um, in response to certain triggers. So one of the things I noticed with my snoring was it was very seasonal. It would be much worse.  Um, in the depths of winter.

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Um, and it would also get worse if I kind of changed if I went to a hot country and there was air conditioning  and, um,  this condition is really kind of triggered by changes in the air changes in, um, humidity, temperature,  and, um,  And so what was happening was, you know, it would become very kind of swollen, the kind of passage between my nose and, uh, you know, the passage, air passage through my nose.

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And so if I was putting on a nasal strip and it was opening up my nose, I was actually kind of drawing in even more air through a really kind of like thin pipe. And it was just making the snoring even worse. Um, and. You know, I tried lots of things, and eventually actually the best product I found was a nasal spray.

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Um, and it's one which is just sold in the pharmacy for hay fever. Sure. Um, it's kind of a steroid nasal spray, and  Yeah, this is the thing that works best, best for me. You know, it still flares up sometimes, I can feel when I have trouble breathing and I just put in a few sprays and it really, really helps.

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And then you have the data too, to then, to look to, to see the measurable change. So you get this snore sound. Exactly. score for anyone that hasn't used this. And when you get this score, then we get to test, like you said. So for you, you did a couple things and initiatives and then, Ooh, okay. Maybe this is actually not helping, maybe it's making it worse.

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And then, okay. So then we trial and error, we find then some of the things that can really make a big difference. And then we see presumably then that number going down and looking more favorable. 

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Yeah, and just feeling much better. Exactly, that's a subjective experience. It's more than how you feel.

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Totally. 

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And  the app really kind of facilitates that process and also contains a lot of information about different products. And one of the fascinating things about snoring is it's not one condition, you know. It's many, many conditions. And what works really amazingly for one person is not gonna have any effect for another.

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And so it can take some trial and error. It can take some, um, you know, really examining the symptoms. And really through the app, we've discovered some actually amazing solutions, which were not really well known. I mean, I think when I was researching this stuff, um, at the beginning, like there was some remedies in there which weren't really well known when you're researching it, you know, you'd, you'd, you'd read a lot about the mouthpieces.

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I mean, really all the snoring was really focused at kind of like tongue obstruction. So a lot of, a lot of mouthpieces and obviously a lot about sleep apnea.  much less for the nose. Um, but we made some really, really interesting discoveries. So for example, um, sleeping on an incline. 

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Yeah. So we 

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put like the, the wedge pillow, or we have some people like raising the head of the bed and actually sleeping on the slope. 

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And this works fantastically well for some people because you're kind of almost changing the direction of force. Well, the direction of gravity is the same, but the  location of your body with respect to gravity changes. So rather than, if you've got weight on the neck, rather than being pulled straight down, elevate the, um, if you elevate your body in an inclined position, this can really, really help.

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And actually, a lot of this knowledge wasn't really there.  Um, when I started and so we really may have made some really interesting kind of discoveries along the way. And, um,  yeah, and, and, and other things like, um, we'll put in like factors which people can log. So, for example, if you've, um,  drunk alcohol, everyone knows alcohol can be a big trigger.

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Yeah. 

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Um, but actually some, there were, we were seeing kind of, um, Equal effects for eating late. So eating a late meal, um, you know, has a really, really big impact. I mean, the,  you know, you're, you're just taking in a whole load of calories Exactly. When you don't need it. . Yeah. And like there is like, your body goes into a kind of a collapse state when you lie down and. 

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Um, it's kind of really unhelpful. So we would see that the heavy meal factor would have a really big impact on people's snoring.  We'd also, um,  and then I had the idea of like, well, let's put in like a fast. What if we can encourage people to not eat in the evenings? So we've got one in there, like a four hour fast. 

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And this is, you know,  just like the heavy meal is really bad, the four hour fast is really positive.  And so there's real, like, found lifestyle things that people can do, and simple changes, which can really help solve this problem.  And, um,  and one of the things which is in the roadmap, and  It's maybe taken a bit longer than planned because we've gone off on a very interesting sidetrack in the last few years.

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Oh!  

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Uh, one of the, which I'll tell you about in just a minute, but it is, has always been part of a plan for SnoreLab to really listen to the people, listen to the sound of a snoring, listen to their symptoms, understand them and really,  point them the right way, because, you know, it's not always a mouthpiece.

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It's not always nasal strips. It can be, you know, hay fever nasal spray. It can be changing a bed position. It can be changing your eating habits. And these things can be life changing. And  yeah, we  will be doing more to really help people get that right knowledge for them. Um, and this has always been a big part of the plan.

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Um, but,  we got a bit distracted over the past few years.  Um, so, um, which has turned into a very  interesting journey. Um, it got to the point with Snorlab where, yeah, we could measure sound. But,  you know, I knew that wasn't really enough to do more diagnostics. You know, there's a whole element which is beyond sound.

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Sound. Sound. And, um,  I became aware of some very interesting research, which had used sonar, so kind of high frequency sounds to actually measure breathing from a phone. So the phones would kind of play these kind of inaudible high frequency sounds and, and measure breathing. And like, I knew if that was right, that could be real, like game changing for Snorlap.

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Um, so I began my own investigations.  And. Actually, kind of, I tried that kind of technology and  found things I didn't like in it. I could see things which weren't working well in it.  And so I started doing my own experiments, started  approaching the problem in different ways, thinking about alternative approaches,  basically made some really like breakthrough discoveries, um, in the field of motion sensing. 

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Um,  so our goal was really to detect body movements and breathing.  And, um,  so like the, the, this, this kind of early implementation of, of, of sonar, which was a lot of the inspiration, um, uses kind of like high frequency sound. So inaudible above our hearing range, but they will kind of do this chirping technique.

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So go where, where, when, when, when, when it was going to zoom in around and  Even though I couldn't hear it, I could kind of feel it.  And I found it quite annoying and I couldn't sleep with it. So it was like really not helpful to have something supposedly tracking your sleep, which was preventing me from sleeping.

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So, 

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um, yeah, 

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so, so that was kind of a flaw in that. And I started experimenting with, but I saw there was something there. I saw that there was obviously potential. And so what I started doing was playing with a pure tone. So rather than changing the frequency, I played a fixed frequency. So it's like a tone like D it's a perfect tone and a very high frequency.

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So we can't hear it.  Um, and,  and.  The idea being that we can't hear it. We don't notice it also because, you know, our brains don't really notice things, which are still,  um, you know, something still, we just kind of like filter out, we don't, we don't notice it.  And, um, so I started seeing like, what information can I get from the signal and, and, and  how can I work with this, this tone?

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and kind of made some really like  amazing discoveries really and and we went down this kind of  huge kind of like not really a rabbit hole i mean it was a rabbit hole it's like the rabbit hole in alice in wonderland because we went down the rabbit hole and just  it's led to just a whole series of amazing discoveries  Um,  uh, so this became a bit of a, uh,  not a distraction, uh, uh, something new came up.

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Um, and,  um, so I can just, I mean, I know some people will be watching this, I think there's gonna be a video of this, so I can just, like, show you this, what it looks like quickly. 

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Yeah, please.  

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So, um,  so if you see, sorry.  So this is, um, I don't know if you can see this.  So basically it's, um, shape is responding to my movement.

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Oh, 

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wow. Interesting. So, 

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um, and this is actually working with inaudible sound.  Um,  and this is, is really, really exciting because, um, what it means is that we can,  and this is what we've started building in the context of a new app, which is Sleepwave. Um, this was a really like, I knew there was a lot of potential in this and, you know, Solab was kind of a big project, so it was really kind of helpful to kind of start fresh, really, in a new context, which gave me a lot of freedom to experiment, try new ideas, and to really kind of  almost start again with, you know, a new focus, which was detecting movement.

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And also breathing with  sound. Well, it's not sound. It's, it's not sound. It's kind of a air movement, air vibration.  Um, you know, it's not sound if we can't hear it.  Um,  and this is really, really exciting. And so we, we've, we've, we started developing this app, sleep Wave, um, really focused on detecting body movements, as I said, breathing.

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And the, the first application we've really focused it on is a smart alarm. Um, so this is an alarm which wakes you up at a great moment for your body.  Um, this was just a, a first application whilst also we are kind of working on other things, um, but. Um, so the idea is that, and it's not an idea, it's a fact, that most people's alarm clocks are really, really bad for them.

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Um, our bodies do not like just to be woken up at, you know, a fixed time, at 7 o'clock, on the dot. You know, because in that moment we might be in a dream, we might be Sleeping more deeply and sleep is just not a constant state. There is constant kind of fluctuations in our brain state in, um,  there's a, there's a lot going on and difference.

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And if we, if we just woken up abruptly by an alarm, just at a random time, it can be very hard to wake up. Um, and everyone knows that feeling of being just, like, shocked awake by an alarm, immediately hitting snooze, going back to sleep, maybe hitting snooze again, and just waking up feeling really roggy, um, really, like,  tired, cloudy in the head.

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And this is a condition called sleep inertia.  Um, and it's really triggered by, yeah, that, that badly timed wake up.  And the amazing thing is, by sensing your body movements,  We can completely solve this problem because whenever we move in bed, um, in order to move our body kind of wakes up. So  any movement, any movement in bed is a moment of awakeness.

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And so our alarm is set within a time window. So instead of seven, you give it seven to seven 15 and it's monitoring your movements and it will be triggered by a body movement in that time when you are naturally waking up.  And.  You know, the difference this makes to people's wake, wake up is just incredible.

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Um, so  their body triggers it. I mean, if they, if they get reach 715 and they're still sleeping, it will sound so they will wake up.  And then we wake them up with like really nice sounds. And people just love this experience of waking up with Sleepwave.  

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Are you looking for an easy and impactful way to elevate your fitness and sleep quality simultaneously?

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Well, then you need to hear about the Carol bike. It's become my latest obsession. It's an AI powered exercise bike. That's really creating a lot of buzz in the fitness world with its effective five minute workouts. The Carol bike stands to support your heart rate variability, HRV and VO two max, which are key markers of cardiovascular health and overall wellbeing.

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And this boost in your fitness protocols can directly. influence your sleep by aiding in blood sugar balance, which consequently supports reducing those disruptive wake ups that are often tied to metabolic health. What makes the Carol Bike especially appealing is its focus on brief, approximately again, five minute workouts that fit effortlessly into even the busiest of schedules.

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These workouts are tailored to tap into your body's innate mechanisms for balancing blood sugar, which is crucial for avoiding those restless nights caused by glucose fluctuations. Just today, after indulging in a meal rich in fruits and sweet potatoes, a combination that typically would really spike my glucose levels with the addition of the Carol bike, my continuous glucose monitor showed that my levels stayed nicely balanced thanks to that quick five minute workout.

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So this is a testament to how integrating Carol bike workouts into your daily life in between zoom calls and all the things that you got going on can help you commit to a journey towards improved fitness and more.  uninterrupted sleep. And isn't that what we all want? It even earned the 2024 Good Housekeeping Award for its innovation in health and fitness.

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For those who are eager to integrate an efficient science backed workout that aligns perfectly with a hectic lifestyle while delivering enduring benefits, the Carroll bike represents an exciting opportunity to do just that. that. Now, thankfully, Carol has hooked us up with a discount. If you use the code sleep is a skill, all one word, you'll get a discount at checkout.

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Wow, this is so crazy because I have not tried this app yet. And so now I'm very excited to explore more on this topic, test it out for myself, and share it with others who really can struggle in the morning hours where they just feel like there are times when they are just dragging so, so much. And I've gotten this question so often, too, of how can we have more tailored, uh, kind of alarms and.

‍

certain trackers are aiming or trying to do some of this. But this is a sounds like really a whole new unique way. Yeah, 

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this is a really a game changing technology. Like we haven't invented the idea of a smart alarm. There have been apps doing this in the past. There's some very famous apps which have done this, but mostly they have done it with sound recognition.

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Yes. 

‍

And the problem is.  Movement doesn't necessarily make a sound and other things which aren't movement can  sound like movement. So when we were testing some of these apps, it might have been triggered by like a lorry driving past in the street. If 

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I move 

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my hand, it doesn't necessarily make  sound.  You know, our our technology truly detects movement in an extremely kind of sensitive, detailed way. 

‍

And, um,  yeah, and this really, really works. We had a great review, um,  few days ago by saying some of they've slept through kind of tornadoes and fire alarms. In the morning has just been transformed by. This app, 

‍

um,  

‍

yeah, it's just 

‍

so huge because, um, one of the, I actually just spoke about this exact topic today.

‍

I'm talking about it all the time, which is that one of our core tenants for sleep optimization is a consistent ish wake up time. But to your point, having that flexibility and variability, but it's hard to preemptively know what a part of that kind of wake up window. And it, my understanding through from what I'm seeing on your website is that that's kind of what you choose is that wake up window.

‍

Yeah. Well, 

‍

what I'd say to that is I think the optimum is for many people, you don't need an alarm clock. You know, it's great. You know, you can wake up when your body is ready. And my personal sleep, I sleep when my body needs it. 

‍

Yeah. 

‍

Um, and so I'm, I'm not someone who has a very fixed sleep routine. Um, and we can talk more about that later, but a lot of people don't have that choice.

‍

Um, particularly kind of, you know, teenagers who need to wake up to go to school. They need to be at school at a really early time at like eight 30 in the morning. And, you know, it can be really hard. for people to wake up. People who need to wake up at a time. This improves your wake up. And, you know, it's a really, really big problem.

‍

Just like snoring is a really, really big problem. And this is a problem which kind of,  nobody's really aware of, you know, everyone is waking up to these jarring alarms, which are not good for our brains.  And  so this is like a really, and the app's doing great. You know, we've, we've, we've, we've just, we've crossed a hundred thousand monthly users.

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Um,  yeah, people really love it. And we're going to do a lot more with it because it's also been a vessel of new technology. Um, and, um, yeah, so it's been really, really exciting, but at the same time as developing motion sensing, I've also been working on breathing detection, um, which of course is  another really big area.

‍

So, I mean, this technology is so sensitive and by the way, we're granted a patent, um, on the technology and  There's more coming. So  there's not stuff I'm going to talk about because it's not yet kind of out there, but there are more patents pending. So there is more on the way from us in terms of technology, which is, is also really exciting.

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So there's more to come on all of this stuff. 

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Incredible. And I can feel your passion too. And yeah, 

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no, it's, it's been like, you know, it's been such an exciting few years, such an exciting few months, such an exciting week, even for me, you know, it's just like, These, uh,  it's just been an incredible period of like kind of flowing ideas and discoveries and just working with amazing people.

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Um, and the amazing people have also kind of allowed me to,  you know, work on this stuff, which is really like my passion. You know, I'm really doing the core technology, um, as well as obviously, helping with other things, but, um, you know, I've, I've really been engrossed in the technology, uh,  you know, recently, and it's just been very, very exciting time.

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Oh, well, congratulations. I love hearing that. It's, it's always so clear for me when it, because, you know, we'll have tons of people coming on the podcast and you can just see. feel the connection to this mission that certain people are on. And I definitely get that sense from you. And I'm very excited to be seeing more of what is developing in this product suite.

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And one of the other things that we might want to touch on as well, because I mean, there's so many exciting things that we could, we should really have a podcast for each single one, honestly, but in lieu of that for now, the third one that I understand is. Dan, that you also have the SNORE Gym. Yes. And I'm wondering if you can share about that too.

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Yeah. 

‍

So Snore Gym is an, an app of exercises to help you with snoring. So again, this is something which wasn't very well understood even 10 years ago. Ironically, actually, when, uh, I first started on this journey, I, I kind of found this kind of PDF of of, of some, someone online who described like doing these, I think his name. 

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He described these exercises of like imagining like an orange in your mouth and kind of expanding your mouth as if it was an orange in there. It was a very  funny kind of PDF from many, many years ago. Um, but then we learned more about this amazing research, um, on exercise routines for snoring. Um, and this.

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can help and does help so many people. Um, really one of the prime causes for snoring in a lot of people is just as we get older, our muscles get weaker. Um, and so this is the muscles of our cheeks, the muscles of our jaw, our tongue. Maybe we've got a flabby soft palate, which is kind of the soft tissue at the roof of the mouth.

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And so these exercises are all about strengthening the tongue, strengthening the soft palate, strengthening the cheeks. And,  yeah, you can do them in five minutes a day and it will help. If you are in certain groups of snoring, it will help. really, really help. Um,  and again, yeah, that's an amazing thing. I mean, I can't take credit for like coming up with the exercises, but what we did was kind of package it up and, you know, make it accessible to people, make it an app.

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So it's kind of bundled in with, with SnoreLab premium now. So if you, if you upgrade for SnoreLab, you get Snore Gym for free, or you can actually just buy it on its own. Um, and it's just a really kind of like convenient way of,  of, you know, timing these exercises and viewing these exercises. And we actually spent, um,  a long time at the beginning of the project, just,  you know, and how do we animate a tongue?

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And it's like a 

‍

really, really hard thing to do. So you, you, you see in, um, in the app, there's kind of some X, some exercise and we're illustrated as almost like a cross section of a  And we spend so much time trying to get that tongue It's not quite physically realistic because, um, it's smaller than it would be in real life, but just to really make this tongue that could be animated in such a way to like really illustrate these exercises in a clear way.

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Um, so there was a really kind of like fun period of kind of developing. these kind of animations of, of the tongue.  

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Oh my gosh, this is so huge and cannot be underestimated too. Cause we'll have, we've had different myofunctional therapists on the podcast and speaking to efficacies around the efficacy of venturing into some of these things that you could do, whether on its own or in conjunction with certain treatments.

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Cause of course there's many tiers of what we might be dealing with. Is it snoring? Is it sleep apnea? The whole, you know, litany of things. But one of the things that you do have on your website. site are some things that it sounds like you have discovered in your research, as far as the effectiveness of mouth exercises for snoring and sleep apnea.

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And you note 56 percent reduction in snoring, 39 percent reduction of sleep apnea severity, 46 percent less sleepiness, 65 percent more time spent in deep sleep. I mean, these are some of the things that can really just move the needle. And so many people's experience of their, the quality of that sleep sleep that they are getting, but also then measurably, because a lot of people listening might be tracking their sleep performance on different sleep trackers.

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And then of course with the SnoreLab, et cetera. So this is huge. I really appreciate this.  

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It really is. And I just think it's kind of wonderful,  this kind of collective journey people have been on of this kind of sharing of knowledge, which has happened, you know, through technology really over the past decades.

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Because as I said, when I started. on this journey. The only information I found on these exercises was kind of some, some PDF, um, describing kind of imagining an orange in your mouth. 

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Yes. 

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Um, you know, that was, and that was really hard to find. Um,  um, so yeah, and I think it's just amazing that these, we can make these discoveries and there are,  apps and  just podcasts  and so many ways in which we can share.

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Um, really a lot of this knowledge about how we can treat snoring was not there  or widely accessible, um, just 10 years ago. Um, you know, this this thing about sleeping on an incline. I think there was very little information about that. Um, so, yeah, I think it is a wonderful  kind of, you know, I think there is a this this this amazing kind of body of knowledge, which we can access now and exercise is a central part of that.

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Um, you know, snoring is something we can treat, um, and you can treat it actually without spending money, but through, um.  That was, um,  uh, you know,  just three or five minutes of exercise a day  can have profound, profound effects. So 

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huge. Okay. Well, so I think this might be a perfect transition in that case then to, since you, this all began with your own discovery around your own snoring and then it grew and blossomed into all of these amazing advancements.

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So every person that we bring on the podcast, we do ask four questions around how they're managing their own sleep and would love to hear now that. I mean, you've thrown yourself into this area, you've got patents, you've got all these things. How in the world are you now managing your own sleep? So the first question, right?

‍

What's your nightly sleep routine looking like with this? 

‍

Honestly, at the moment, it is interesting because  I bet, 

‍

right? Juggling all these businesses and 

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Yeah, um, no, I find often the night is sometimes when my brain comes to life and I'm able to process a lot of ideas. Um, so a lot of my ideas, my inventions, um, come, you know, around sleep, maybe before sleep, during sleep, I'll often wake up, um, And I wake up needing to process, needing to think about something.

‍

And this is one of the things that fascinates me about sleep, because sleep is where we process thoughts. Um, when our,  when our eyes are open, like during the day, actually so much of our, our brain power is used just kind of creating that scene and processing kind of that sensory input. Um, it can be hard to really do deep thinking.

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And I find that when I close my eyes.  that is often when kind of the synapses light up and all of a sudden the solution to some problem will come.  Um, and so I will, I'm someone who I have a sofa in the office and I will  every day kind of lie down for at least a few minutes. Um, often I just need a few minutes just to close my eyes and just, you know, shut out the light really.

‍

And  often it's just a few minutes to Uh, and then, yeah, I'm ready to kind of continue with the thoughts, um, but yeah, my sleep at the moment is, in fact, my life is consumed by ideas and ideas. As such, it isn't the most conducive to getting amazing sleep. But I would actually consider it amazing sleep, because I think the discoveries and the ideas are amazing, and I think they happen through sleep. 

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Um, and so, kind of, I wel I welcome, I've learned to, if I wake up in the night,  um, I've learned to understand that my brain needs to process something.  Um, if you wake up in the night, it's, I've  Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's useless. Just trying to like stay lying in bed and feeling like I should be sleeping. I should be sleeping.

‍

So, you know, I've learned to get up a bit, um, not wake up too much, but just to let those thoughts happen.  And, uh, you know, one of the nice things that  I'm seeing through the work with, with, with sleep wave and like breathing analysis and sleep phase analysis, so one of the things we do is. measure your breathing and try to measure your sleep phases, which we can look at breathing, and I'll notice that often I'm waking up when I would be going into REM, when I would be going into that, that kind of mental period.

‍

a thought period, thought processing period of sleep is when I wake up and, you know, it's because I've got a thought that I need to process awake.  Um, so yeah, my, my sleep is often broken. Um, but  that sounds like such a negative word.  Um, but I've, I've learned to,  you know, embrace that and embrace it as part of my process.

‍

It's not always nice for my wife, who,  you know, sometimes get frustrated with that. Or, you know, she's had to, it's not always easy being kind of married to a, a snoring sleep inventor.  But, um, yeah, so, um, yeah. So in terms of kind of,  and then often, you know, if I have. I will sleep in a bit later if my body needs it, or if, um, I feel I really, one other thing I've learned is, is to really, this is advice I often give, is to really listen to your body.

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Um, your body kind of tells you what it needs. And, you know, I will  often, like, if I feel tired in the day, I will take a nap. Um, and maybe that means  sleep is easily in the evening, but I would embrace that process of thought. Thanks. Um, so yeah, my sleep isn't really kind of too, the cycle. Um, it, it does have its cycles of course, and I do  on average get  a lot of sleep.

‍

You know, I'm not someone who, that's something, you know, I will, I will,  you know,  normally get more than seven hours and sometimes I, I'll, I'll sleep more, you know, eight, nine hours if I, and, and that's,  that's great.  So,  yeah, so it's, that's my process at the moment. And, you know, it's really is about thought and embracing it.

‍

And I, I enjoy that process.  

‍

Amazing. Okay, great. Well, so, and I actually kind of underscoring what, what you're sharing to run the genesis of this, you know, kind of discovery and this entire path that you went on was coming from this experience of I'm snoring and then what can I do about it? How can I record this?

‍

And then further, how can I improve upon this? So have you been able to see See if measurable changes for like you used to score on the snore lab X number and now you're consistently fairly often having a new lower baseline. 

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Yeah. Yeah. Look, I've, I've not been snoring as much recently, which is really great.

‍

And I tend to focus on  a few things at a time. I'm someone who  almost can't focus on too many things at once. So recently I've been really focused on detecting breathing. Um, and so I, um,  that's really been my focus. So that is through Sleepwave. I'll be almost running experiments during the night on myself.

‍

So I'll be testing algorithms. I will be, um,  testing ways of creating a signal to really try and capture  Breathing, so chest movements, tiny chest movements, which we can now do very, very accurately, which is another really exciting thing, which we'll be talking more about, you know, ahead. Um, so, yeah, I mean, as I said, I don't, my snoring kind of flares up sometimes.

‍

Um,  uh, but, you know, my real focus recently has been on sleep measurement, breathing measurement.  motion. Um, and  yeah, so that's, that's really been my, my, my focus. 

‍

So great. And so with all that you yourself have been able to take your scores from a particular level, improve them. They still, you know, there's things that flare up or can improve, but you're able to kind of be more aware of the things that are definitely going to send those numbers up.

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Exactly. 

‍

Cool. That's, that's our whole goal. 

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Got to feel it as well. I've learned to recognize the feelings. And, you know, know, you know, what it is I need to 

‍

do. Okay. Did we miss anything in your nightly sleep routine in particular that we need to call out? Do we capture everything? 

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Yeah, I think that's it. I mean, I'm, I'm, as I said, I'm often a test subject for my apps, so it  is kind of setting up a little, a little lab, um, experiments.

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Um, so,  yeah. Okay. Thank you. 

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So good. Okay, great. And then how about your quote unquote morning sleep routine? Now, presumably I'm assuming sleep wave is a part of how you wake up, but let us know what we might see in your morning sleep routine. 

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Yeah, look, uh, I think  one of my favorite things in the morning is making coffee, which I love. 

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So, so coffee is one of my joys in life. So we have a coffee grinder and, um, Yeah, and kind of, uh, so it's really kind of fresh and, and, and delicious. Um,  and yeah, often I'll be looking at the results from, from the last night. So I'll be kind of digging into quite, quite early. I'll be very excited to just kind of see what are the readings, you know, what has come out, has something worked.

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Um, so I'll be very excited to kind of delve into that data And I have kids, so I have two kids who are, I'm 10 and  Um, 13 and so obviously to spend some time with them in amongst all of this, um, and I would love to say because it is so healthy, it is so healthy that to go out for a run, um, I'm so looking forward to doing it again in the morning and I haven't done it in a while because I've been so preoccupied in this work and it's been cold outside but generally I would love to go for a run in the morning.

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I think this is such a positive thing to do.  Um, and then, um, the other really big, important part of, um,  my and our company's morning routine.  is actually how we start our work day and I think this is something really, really positive. So, um, we live in London and, um, if you were to try and go into central London in the morning, it is horrible.

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You know, the trains are so busy, it's such  a difficult and unpleasant start to the day. And this is not something I wanted for myself. I wanted for my colleagues. And so we have a really nice way to. start the day of work. Um, so every day at 9. 15, we do our kind of team call and there's everyone involved.

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Everyone speaks for just a few minutes. It's all over in about 15 minutes,  but it's nice. It's everyone from home. And then we do have an office and then people that arrive. later. So, you know, I'll travel in, you know, often like 10, 10 30, maybe after doing some work at home. Um, and let the train is nice and quiet and I can do often do some work on the train.

‍

And this is such a lovely routine. And, you know, I feel sorry for anyone who needs to kind of take the trains and things at busy times. But I just think it's a really kind of positive and healthy thing to think about how we time our work and the kind of rhythm we bring to that.  

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Um,  

‍

so, you know, and I think of mornings, it's, it's very much also that kind of team get together, which is, is really, really positive. 

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Oh, that's amazing. I love that. And then what might we see on your nightstand or maybe proverbial nightstand if you're traveling, on the go or just ambience, things that we might point to? 

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One of my favorite things on my nightstand at the moment is a magnetic phone charger. Um, so I think this has been one of the most brilliant innovations in phones over the last few years is kind of mag safe chargers where you kind of, you stick your phone, um, on the charger.

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You don't have to plug it in. Um, and it's magnetic and this is both really convenient, but it's also really, really good for our technology. Um, you know, it's really great for the phone to be elevated off the surface and it's just raised a bit higher. So it's kind of, it can kind of.  kind of,  you know, this, this kind of sonar sounds, acoustic technology can kind of get more readily to your body, um, it's air vibration.

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Um, so I love these magnetic charges and something we'll be hopefully kind of talking about more in the apps and actually encouraging our users to get because, you know, they do, I think they are so kind of positive for that whole  sleep routine of using, you know, one of our apps during the night. So I'm a big fan of magnetic charges.

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Um, I also have some books of my, on my table, which,  um, I read when I can. Um, and I love reading about physics. Um, so my favorite author over the past few years has been, um, a guy called Carlo 

‍

Rovelli, 

‍

who's wrote, written a series of books on physics. Um, if anyone wants a fantastic primer on the history of physics, I highly recommend his book Reality Is Not What It Seems.

‍

Oh, I'll have to look into 

‍

that. Yeah, fantastic book. Um, and so I have a Carlo Rivetti book and I also have a very big biography of Albert Einstein, who, um, who's my hero.  Did you 

‍

watch the show about him? Kind of his life story, the series? I have not seen 

‍

the show, but I think the show is based on the book that I'm reading.

‍

Yes, that's 

‍

what I thought. Yes, I want to say that is true. I'd be curious, given Your knowledge and interest in that and having read that, what you might think of the show, you'll have to let me know if you watch it. Wow. Very cool. Okay. So applied physics to the world of sleep, bringing that into it. 

‍

So much of it is.

‍

I mean, that's the amazing thing. I mean, we're really working on this new technology is physics, it's pure physics, it's working at the level of energies and waves, um, and maths. And it's being absolutely, you know, I've just absolutely loved kind of delving back into this, into this world of physics.  So much of what you're doing is, is pure physics.

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Well, so much of the sleep optimization world, there's a lot of buzz around this concept of quantum biology. And so you'll hear a lot of this coming into how can we measurably make a difference from on a quantum level, if you will. There's a lot of different conversations of, is this used lightly or what have you.

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But anyway, it does bring in some of these concepts that you're speaking to, and then could they be applied to our own health and well being. So really fascinating. And I love that you called this. I just, I love it. Pulled it up. So reality is not what it seems. I will definitely be checking that out and I'll report back.

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And so that's fantastic. So we would see on your nightstand kind of one, you have a good setup for how you can have your phone so that you can capture all this information that you're gathering. Um, you've got the, the books, the physical books that you can delve into if you're so inclined. Anything else that we missed?

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I have a beautiful lamp, 

‍

a 

‍

switch and a big, big light bulb. I can't remember what it's called, but it is just like a big lightbulb of an idea and it's very pretty and you just twist it and it glows. 

‍

Amazing.  

‍

Yeah, I have a lamp. 

‍

Well, the physics piece too, because I'm speaking a lot about just what can feel like to such granular levels on the physics of light and how light can really be used as a drug, both light, dark.

‍

So that's the whole topic in and of itself. This 

‍

is something really, uh, I also really care about. I mean, I, I'm someone who kind of has a,  Uh, kind of sad, you know, seasonal affectional disorder, which I'm sure you know, which affects me kind of very profoundly, like when the lights change and it gets darker, you know, my ancestors didn't live in cold England, they lived in hotter places, and like,  lack of light is a real kind of thing. 

‍

Yeah, so, so, so yeah, using kind of light therapy, um, and like topping up my vitamin D and things during the winter is something I find very essential. 

‍

Oh, amazing. So good. Okay. I feel like I could talk to you all day. You've got so many kind of passions and areas that you're delving into. So, so good. Now where you're at right now, and I know you're an active mind and there's going to be a lot of developments, but at the moment, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game or said another way?

‍

Biggest aha moment in managing your own sleep? 

‍

Yeah, that would definitely be the moment where I, after building snore lab, I heard my snoring.  That was an 

‍

out of body moment.  

‍

Yeah, it really was. I mean, the sound I heard, I could not believe it. Believe. And, um, yeah, you know, that was  an amazing life changing moment and that I built the tool to make that happen.

‍

Um, so this was,  you know, obviously a  pivotal moment in my life, that whole journey, and it's still continuing and it's got further to run as well, which is, it's so exciting because, yeah, I love what I do and I want to do more. Um, you know, we're not,  the snore lab of today is not going to be There's going to be more in the future.

‍

There's more coming. The sleep wave of today, there's more coming. There is so much more  we have to do. And I'm really excited about that journey ahead. 

‍

Amazing. Wow. Well, I'm so excited to have your brain on the mission of some of these areas that we really Could use some continued innovation and you've already set the stage for some incredible pieces of tech.

‍

So for people listening, I hope you're already checking out. Of course, in the show notes, we'll have all of those current apps and advancements all linked in there. And I'm sure we're going to want to continue to follow you to see what the heck else is coming. So how can they do that? How can they follow and be a part of this?

‍

You know, that's a good question. I'm really rubbish on social media. I basically don't do social media. I 

‍

understand. So, 

‍

um,  you know, I think the best way to follow me is to download the apps and use the apps. And hopefully I'll get better at, um, doing more of this stuff 

‍

because it's 

‍

so interesting to share.

‍

It's so lovely to share.  Um,  uh, but I think the best way, because there is so much of me in, in these apps. Yeah. That's the way to connect, you know, this, this is there's connection there and that.  

‍

Fantastic. And it sounds like too, once you're in one of the apps, then you might also learn about some of the other ones.

‍

Like for instance, snore Lab then has the Snore Gym, right? 

‍

Yeah. Snore Lab and Snore Gym are Link Sleep Wave has been really on the side. Okay. It's been  intentionally actually not focused on snoring yet. 

‍

Okay. The kids I 

‍

really wanted to major in on.  The other stuff first. Um, you know, there is a plan for all of us to come together, obviously, for that motion breathing section to come into Snorlab and for Sleepwave also kind of to delve into the world in a lightweight way.

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It's not, it's never going to be the same as Snorlab, which is really focused on that problem. It's much more, um, it's for, you know,  more general audience, I suppose, who don't need to focus as much on the storing. Um, so, um, yeah, they're, they're kind of different apps, but they all are related and they, um, their technology will be coming together, um, into a beautiful bouquet of amazingness, hopefully over, um, the next few years.

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And we're also doing other cool stuff as well. There's even more than that, and it's kind of, it gets a bit hard because there is so much. Um, but, um, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a good,  I suppose it's a good problem to have too much to focus on. 

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Oh, I, I getcha. Yeah, 100%. That's amazing. Wow. Well, keep on kind of fulfilling on all of the amazing work that you've been doing.

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This is incredible. Like I, I, I, started this podcast. I've been sharing about sleep lab for ages and have just thought it was just such an important kind of piece of that puzzle to gather this information quickly. I mean, I'm able to tell people, yeah, download it and listen and get those stats tonight. I mean, it's one of the fastest recommendations I can make for people, but then to be discovering for certainly for me in this conversation, these other advancements as well, just really, really exciting.

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And so I so appreciate the work you're doing and appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast today. 

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Yeah, so thank you for having me. It's really been a pleasure talking to you and connecting with you. As someone else who is so passionate about helping people with their sleep.  

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My mission on the planet, and it's clear to me that you're right there with me.

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So  like minded humans. So fantastic. Thank you again. And then we'll be in touch. We might just have to have you back on to go more in depth on all of these very exciting technologies. Thank you so much.  You've been listening to the Sleep Talks. Sleep as a skill podcast, the top podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level.

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com forward slash newsletter to sign up. 

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