174: Dr. Sara Silverman, Behavior Sleep Medicine Specialist: Overcome Insomnia: Expert Tips from Stanford-Trained Sleep Expert!

Welcome to the Sleep as a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world behaves.

thinks about sleep. Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle, Style is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health.

And by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My guest today is Dr. Sarah Silverman, and she is a Stanford trained holistic sleep specialist, insomnia expert and wellness consultant who's passionate about sleep health and wellness. Dr. Sarah uses a personalized mindfulness based approach to help improve sleep problems.

Notably, she's an expert CPTI. The first line drug free approach for adults with chronic insomnia. CBTI is an effective way to improve sleep naturally and overcome chronic insomnia without medication. Dr. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Sleep and Shine, a boutique sleep telehealth practice offering personalized and holistic sleep services.

She's also the founder and CEO of Z's Haas, also known as Sleep House, an online health consulting agency, which provides concierge holistic wellness, coaching and consulting services as a company focused on women's health. sleep and circadian health optimization. She uses cutting edge epigenetics, testing, circadian science, and evidence based protocols to maximize performance.

She has also been published in reputable scientific journals and routinely provides. digital media coverage on sleep and circadian health connect with Dr. Sarah at Dr. Sarah sleep on all social platforms. I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation. And first a few words from our sponsors, please check them out.

They really do keep this podcast alive. So that would mean a lot to us if you just go to their website or check them out on social. And then right after that, we'll jump into the podcast.  If you're listening to this podcast, you're likely looking to improve your sleep. And one of the first places that many people begin when they talk to me about sleep is they want to know what's the supplement I can take.

Well, I got to say, I honestly don't take that many supplements nowadays for my sleep. And I'm very grateful for that. A lot of things you can do for free. However, one of the supplements that I do consistently take and have taken for ages is magnesium, specifically magnesium breakthrough. It's an all natural supplement that helps you reduce fatigue and sleep more peacefully.

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com forward slash sleep is a skill. And I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised by the results.  And welcome to the sleep is a skill podcast. This has been a long time coming this episode with Miss Dr. Sarah.  I'm going to call you Dr. Sarah sleep because that's your handle on Instagram and that's how I've known you.

Oh, I love it. Dr. Sarah Silverman. Amazing to have you here. And I am just so happy because, you know, we were chatting and it feels like we've known each other thanks to the wonders of social media. But this is our first time of really getting to interact and I'm excited to learn more about what you are doing in the world of sleep together on this show.

podcast live right now. So let's get into it. So thank you for taking the time to be here. Of course. Thank you so much for having me, Molly. This has been a long time coming and I'm so excited for our chat today. Yay. Me too. Me too. I know we're very aligned on so many things in the world of sleep and that's what's been really cool about this podcast.

podcast and getting to see different approaches that experts like yourself are bringing to this world of sleep. And also I know for you in particular, sleep optimization and how to bridge the gap from some of the very important foundational things that we can do to support our sleep. The things that some of the listeners might have heard around certainly getting tested for sleep disorders, CBTI.

some of those very crucial things. So we're not stepping over those, but then we're also seeing what else is there. And I know you're start, you have made a, taken a stand in that area, and particularly as well for women's health. So maybe we can start a little bit at the beginning of how should you become such an expert in this arena?

Yeah, well, thank you for that, Molly. And yes, I have a formal background in clinical health psychology. So I kind of went the traditional route as far as my academic training. And with that, um, I actually trained in, um. Medical centers and hospitals during graduate school. So I have also kind of a different take on being a clinical psychologist.

So while a lot of people may be more of a generalist, I was very focused on how to help people who have a lot of medical comorbidities. And of course, working in a hospital setting, the number one complaint Is I can't sleep or, you know, the nurse keeps waking me up. And so, of course, that led me down the path of learning about sleep psychology and how to really intervene on an inpatient setting, actually, at first.

And then I decided to pursue more of a  formal fellowship in behavioral sleep medicine, and that's where CPTI comes into play, as well as a number of other different behavioral sleep medicine interventions, like helping people who have trouble adjusting to their CPAP machine, and imagery rehearsal therapy for nightmare disorders.

Order also circadian rhythm optimization for those with circadian rhythm disorders. So I tend to see more severe cases of sleep disorders as I have over the years.  And so right now, I still do see a lot of severe sleep disorder cases in my traditional private practice. But I also now have a second company that's more of a consulting company, a consulting agency where I really do focus more on women's health and specifically women's sleep health and circadian health optimization.

And part of why I made this transition Was because, you know, doing CBTI over the years, which for your listener is cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia, CBTI for short. It is the first line treatment approach for chronic insomnia in adults. So it should be the first step when someone goes to their doctor and says, you know, Hey, I'm having trouble sleeping.

Unfortunately, as we know very well, most folks. Don't necessarily get cbti is the first step. It's often medication Which can be an incredibly helpful tool But it's not necessarily the best long term solution, of course So over the years i've certainly seen cbti work very well for the majority of folks and I think that really speaks to What the research says as well, that 70 to 80 percent of folks who complete CBT I do notice a significant reduction in their insomnia symptoms,  but then there's that small percentage of folks that don't respond well.

And so being the sleep detective that I am, and seeing, you know, a lot of folks over the years that maybe did see a little bit of improvement with CBT I, but just not to the extent that they were hoping, that really let me down. The rabbit hole into well, what else? What am I missing here? And how can I really best support my clients so that they can really achieve the best results possible and ultimately transform their sleep and their health?

So long story short, um, I ended up coming across an epigenetic company  And specifically, I'll talk a little bit more about, um, the company and how I've been partnering with this company. So the designer Jeans Co. Um, so shout out to Lindsay, who's the CEO and founder there. She has built this boutique genomics company, um, Where she actually has developed this proprietary test that actually assesses for 500 more genetic variants or SNPs than any other consumer DNA test on the market.

And it's very different from, say, an automated test as well, where, you know, like the 23andMe, self decode, you have a printout of, say, all of your DNA. you know, genetic variants or, uh, higher risk for some genetic areas. And that is good information to have, but it's, you know, what do you do with that information once you have it?

And so, the reason I was so, uh, Attracted to the designer jeans company in this test was because of how, um, comprehensive this practitioner grade genomics test is and how I can use those insights to really help assess the other areas of health that maybe are often overlooked when it comes to sleep. So specifically, you know, I'm talking like getting into, um, gut health, but specifically like histamine sensitivity.

Glutamate sensitivity, gluten, um, going into areas of glucose handling, blood sugar regulation, hormone health. There are a number of different insights that are very granular. I mean, they go very specific and these are some areas that could potentially lead to sleep disruption and even could potentially cause or exacerbate insomnia.

So What I found now is, you know, being able to essentially use DNA based coaching for women, I'm able to take these genetic insights, but really look at their genomics from more of an epigenetics lens. So, the coaching piece is where all of this comes together. It's taking someone's DNA. Genetic report or genetic analysis and really tying in their current concerns, their medical history, what's going on in their lives and using that to really optimize their sleep and health  so that in a nutshell is where I'm at, and I'm happy to talk more specifics about So quick call out or well, one thing I should say is, I really appreciate that you're speaking to some of the challenges that come about from many people when they invest a decent amount of money into testing of their genetics and there's a lot of big companies out there that are Reporting to give all kinds of great information and they highlight sleep and sleep optimization is some of the things that they might be able to get back and really make a difference.

But time and time again, I'm often seeing people be a bit dispirited after they. Go through that process for some of those companies are exactly what you said with a missing of how to extrapolate what to do about these things or maybe incomplete testing. I mean, they're not getting the whole picture, and it's kind of left with all right now.

I got more information, and now I'm even more confused, whereas what you're pointing to from what I'm hearing, and that's great. I hadn't been connected with this company, so I'll have to explain that. more. That's amazing. Is what it sounds like. It's filling that gap of how to understand this testing thoroughly and then getting us into action.

So I'm wondering if maybe you can share some of the things that you've seen. I know you pointed to histamine and other issues that are commonly coming up and that you're able to get in there. What are some of those things that are things that you've seen time and time again and then been able to make a difference with through understanding these test results?

Yeah, thank you for this question. So I do want to just point out in terms of epigenetics and how this is different from genetics. Genetics is, of course, your DNA, which doesn't change, but when we look at epigenetics,  so looking at your genes from this epigenetics lens, it is how your genes are are currently behaving or expressing as your genes are interacting with your environment, your lifestyle, your sleep quality, your stress level, your nutrition, activity levels, etc.

So there is a lot of different areas here that we can really Empower the individual once they do have these insights and can see, wow, there's a lot of these areas where I do actually have the ability to prevent certain genes from turning on or off. And there are some genes that we want on versus off.

So think of thinking of them as like a light switch that you can potentially turn on or off. Um, especially as we age,  there's of course, you know, increased risk for. potentially more medical issues. And so this to me, this testing really gives the individual this sense of empowerment, knowing that maybe there's higher risk in some categories or a higher likelihood in some categories.

It's not diagnostic. So that of course doesn't mean that someone's going to develop those diseases, but it really does give you a lot more insight into how to intervene. Today and really focus on prevention and of course optimization of your overall health. So in terms of the nitty gritty, some of the things that I've been seeing, and of course a lot of folks that get in touch are really interested in the sleep genes.

And I am too, um, of course. Um, so things like your circadian rhythm genes, like the clock gene, the per three, things that can indicate whether someone has more of a delayed sleep onset, also sleep disruption or sleep movement. We can also see whether someone is genetically more of a shorter sleeper or a longer sleeper.

Um, so lots of, of sleep insights, which are great, but what's interesting is. You know, actually not seeing a lot of genetic, um, mutations. I like to call them variants in the sleep department. So a lot of folks who may be claim the, you know, I'm a night owl, um, or they have certain beliefs about how they sleep.

Sometimes we can really see from the report that at baseline, you know, in terms of someone's chemistry. They're actually maybe not a delayed sleeper. They don't necessarily have a delayed sleep onset. So what that tells us is, well,  their genes are really interacting with their lifestyle. And a lot of times that is, you know, how much light exposure they may be getting during the day or not getting.

And of course, how much artificial blue light they might be getting in the evening that can further delay sleep. onset. And of course, some behaviors there that can impact the timing of sleep as well.  So it's really interesting. Absolutely. And so part of your protocol is to begin here, get a kind of full imagery of what's happening for sleep.

your patient and then be able to start bringing about some of these changes. Do you retest thereafter? Do we just know what we saw and then we're making some of these changes and then seeing the positive results for them? What does that kind of process look like? Yeah, it's a great question. So you actually only have to test once.

With this test, so it's test once and really have your gene codes or your genetic blueprint for life, which I think is such a cool investment because you don't have to retest since your actual DNA  won't change. But what we're really working towards is the epigenetic piece, the coaching piece, so taking that data and really now coming up with strategy.

this genetic strategy that's really going to move the needle for someone's health. And a lot of times it is lifestyle changes. So there are many different areas there, but it's taking what we can see in the genes and then using that as information to come up with a very personalized custom strategy.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad you answered that one because, uh, that's one of the questions we get a lot. with some of these different companies is, well, if I've tested then, and now I'm making all these changes and you know, many of these companies will then have supplements attached to them. And so a whole litany of, you know, more ways to spend money.

And sometimes, you know, you can argue that maybe that's a great approach. Other questions with that. So then that will be the question thereafter for some people is like, okay, well, from an epigenetic standpoint, then am I going to test again? So thank you for the clarification of no, you do not need to do that.

Um, but you can. Continue to improve upon what you have, the cards you've been dealt, but then the power of epigenetics in no longer putting us in that conversation of, well, that's just is who I am and we can, there's so much that we can do amazing. And so why the focus on women in particular for you, what do you see there in that topic?

Yeah, I love this question because, as you may know well, women are virtually more predisposed to having more sleep issues, and specifically with insomnia, women are, or women have a 40 percent higher chance of developing insomnia than men, and of course there are a number of different reasons for that, but one of the biggest areas is Hormone changes.

So depending on your age and where you're at in life, you know, even for women who are still going through their monthly cycle there is often a lot of disruption the week before you make out your monthly period and then of course Compare menopause and menopause in those years, there are a lot of changes as well that can really tip the scale and cause a bit of sleep disruption.

So that's one big area, but also I think women are juggling a lot of different responsibilities. There's a lot of stressors. There's so many factors that really increase the likelihood that women You know, may develop some form of a sleep problem, whether it's insomnia or sleep apnea, which often goes undiagnosed as well in many women.

And  so I think just by nature of Being a woman, seeing how, you know, I've seen probably now thousands of women over the past, gosh, 14 years or so, and have really seen how  a lot of these sleep issues go overlooked by primary care docs. Even sometimes sleep dogs will miss some things like circadian rhythm issues.

So it, you know, of course it's just a  special place in my heart just knowing that there are so many women who are really walking around with kind of this invisible problem and feeling very alone. And I know from, from my own personal sleep history as well, um, I struggled with sleep for pretty much my whole life.

Of course, the irony. Yeah, totally. Yeah,  um, as, as I know from your story too.  You know, and now really taking more of an empowered approach and helping the, you know, the women who really do need the help and the support the most. And of course men too, you know, there's certainly, um, certain sleep disorders that men are more predisposed to, but I really do feel like women because of the hormone aspect.

And also. Just in the way that sleep problems often look different, um, I think it really takes a very personalized approach to really get women the results that they deserve. Absolutely. Are you looking for an easy and impactful way to elevate your fitness and sleep quality simultaneously? Well, then you need to hear about the CarolBike.

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So again, go to uBlockout, spelled the letter U, block out. And use code sleep as a skill for a discount.  So for while you're working with individuals on this topic of sleep optimization, so beginning with the testing, um, the genetics and the epigenetics approach, then starting to. implement some of these shifts and through the lens of women's health and the complexities that that can bring about.

Are there other testing modalities that you like to utilize or more in the behavioral environmental side of things or what are you seeing there? Yeah, yeah, so it really does depend on the individual but I do  Quite a bit of dim low testing. So dim light melatonin onset testing. So circadian phase profiling as well.

If I suspect that maybe there is circadian dysregulation going on, which would be more of a salivary cortisol melatonin  profile, which can give us some good data, but it's also a timestamp. Yes. The day that you do the testing. So sometimes it is, you know, it's not necessarily representative.  Sure, it can be helpful, um, so I do find that in some women that can be, you know, incredibly beneficial to do as well, but really with the DNA testing that in and of itself.

I think there's just so much to work with there that usually that is sufficient. And the idea is to, you know, take those insights, come up with a strategy and of course, working with each individual to come up with that personalized genetic action plan and then implement that. So, you know, oftentimes what I am typically doing is You know, do three month to six month follow ups so that we can kind of check in, see what's working.

If it isn't working, fine tune things and go from there. So really try to personalize the whole process based on, you know, each individual's goals. And of course, um, there's just so many different areas to look at with sleep often being the focus, but sometimes, sometimes it is more the nutrition gut health area, or maybe it's the glucose.

area and blood sugar regulation. Um, so there could be a number of different angles to take with the information that we have. Absolutely. Yeah. I completely hear that. And on average, do you have a length of time that you work with people? So like if someone's listening and saying, well, how long is this going to take with, you know, genetic testing and all of these things getting more granular and nutrition and what have you, what does that look like for the end?

Granted, as you pointed out. very much, I'm sure, on an individual basis, but what might people expect for length of time? Yeah, so it's a, it's a great question. I think the longest part of the process is usually waiting for the actual report to be analyzed,  when to come back. So that usually is about a four to six week wait time.

Um, the test itself is just a simple cheek swab. So that's less than 30 seconds. You send it to our lab Um, which is true diagnostic, which is also one of the Leading epigenetic testing companies. Yeah, they're amazing. Hannah over there. Yeah, so great. Yes  Yes, yes. So, um, that's usually the longest period of time.

I would say it's just waiting for all the amazing information to come back. And then once we, you know, do get that info, I usually take, um, some time to actually process and interpret the report before meeting with the individual. Um, and. Then once meeting, you actually go through the entire report, which, um, I think is where the human touch is key because automated tests, they really can't take into account someone's medical history, their current concerns, you know, what's actually going on in their life, their health goals, and so  it's a really Um, comprehensive sit down going through the report about two hours.

So it, you know, we go through everything and then of course come up with that personalized strategy. And so then after that point, you know, it'd be maybe three months or so, um, course support along the way, but then really, you know, checking in after three months and see if we need to fine tune things. So again, everybody is different, but I would say usually change can happen pretty quickly because this is, it's precision based on your DNA.

So I tend to find that, you know, once a lot of women are starting their genetic plan,  Change happens so quickly, they start to feel lighter, they start to have more energy, their brain fog starts to get better, you know, they're not waking up as much during the night anymore. So it's all these little changes that actually can happen really quickly when we know exactly how to support someone's specific chemistry.

Absolutely. Oh, well, so great. Did we miss anything that you want to communicate before we shift over to the individualized kind of what's going on for you with your sleep and how you're managing that? Anything that we want to make sure we address? I think for the most part that gives a kind of general overview of testing.

I just want to highlight again, this is very different from automated testing. Um, this is a practitioner grade test. So, um, in addition to the number of insights, your data is never sold,  which is the conversation for a very important point. Thank you. But that's very, yes, that's very important. That's a question I get all the time and rightfully so.

Um, and, and so yeah, data is never sold. It really is, you know, this individualized approach to optimizing your overall wellness. Yeah. Thank you for saying that because we've had different testing companies on the podcast in the past, and that's one of the most common pieces of feedback that we'll get. So appreciate that.

And to your point, for good reason, we also then get new updated reports all the time. What happened with 23andMe  and, you know, lots of concern. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a part of that. Yeah, I totally hear you. Okay, so really good call out. And having said that, I'm sure people are going to be interested in someone like yourself who has clearly thought deeply long and hard on this topic of sleep and in the weeds on this routinely.

So how you're managing your own sleep and what we might be able to learn from that. So we ask everyone four questions and the first one is, what is currently your night sleep routine or your evening sleep routine looking like? Yeah, so I actually like to keep things very simple and very minimal. Yeah.  I do oftentimes, Just by nature of my work have clients late into the evening.

So as much as I can, I do try to reduce my overall light exposure. And I have blue light blocking glasses and different colors. So depending on the time of day, you know, I'll use either yellow, orange, or red. Um, but usually after I'm done for the day, I, you know, may transition to watching a good show for a little bit.

And then once I get into bed, I'm just reading, um, an actual book. Yes, the novelty.  Yeah,  yeah. And that really is it. I keep it really simple and usually I'm, you know, reading two or three pages.  That's it amount. Yes. So that usually does the trick for me. That is amazing. I feel like we're sisters with that lineup because that's pretty much what mine looks like too.

It's the constant juggling act of not working too late and knowing, considering what I'm talking about all the time, making sure I'm keeping myself in check on that, bringing in some nice lighthearted shows or what have you, because so many times people I'll talk to them and they'll be like, Oh, no, can't possibly use TV or what have you.

And it's so doesn't have to look like that. And then that the magic of something kind of low ish tech of just reading a book. Really important. Love that. Great. Okay, so then that gives us a snapshot of your evenings. What might we see in your morning, quote unquote, sleep routine with the thinking that how we start a day could impact our sleep?

Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, I, I do believe that good sleep begins in the morning and what we do in the morning really does its magic. Set our bodies up for that following night of sleep. So it's not just thinking about what we do before bed, which of course is so important, but it's really how we start our day.

Um, and so I typically do try to get outside first thing and, you know, I'm in Florida, so usually there's lots of sunshine, which I'm so grateful for. Um, but yeah, first thing outside, you know, no sunglasses, light into the eyeballs. And oftentimes I'll take breakfast outside and sit outside for a little bit.

Um, and then usually I'll go for a walk around the neighborhood with my dogs. And actually my family lives really close. So we often meet up. Yeah. Which is really nice just to spend that time as well. Um, and then Really, after the walk in the morning, of course, have try to have a protein rich breakfast,  maybe do a little workout.

I often do some type of breathwork practice, even if it's for five or 10 minutes before I start my day, just to get in the right headspace. And I often do just take a few minutes to write in my gratitude journal. Um, and that's, that's really it before I start my day. You know, it's usually the sunshine and a little bit of.

Physical activity and that really sets the tone for the rest of the day. I love that. Well, that sounds nice and layered to me, especially the family. That's cool. I haven't had anyone really say that. It's kind of becoming a missing component. I feel of our lifestyle and our modern lifestyle. So I love that you've connected that and make that happen routinely.

Amazing. My parents love it too, of course. Yeah, I'm sure. Totally. That's amazing. Okay, good. So get that connection, get that sunlight. The protein, the gratitude, breathwork, et cetera. Amazing. And then from that place, what might we visually see in your space or on your nightstand or kind of proverbial nightstand if you're traveling or just kind of in your environment?

Yeah, so another area where I keep things very minimal, in fact, there's really just  My bed and my nightstand and a dresser and that's it. Amazing. So it is, you know, very minimal on purpose. Yeah. Um, and so my nightstand typically has whatever book I'm currently reading. And I also have a red book. snake light that actually goes on the neck.

Yes. Um, so that, that's really it. And then I do have a blackout sleep mask if I need it, or usually when I'm traveling, I will use that.  Um, but my space at home is, is pretty blacked out already. So that's, that's usually, um, for traveling purposes.  Amazing. Yeah, that's one of the through lines that we've seen for a number of people that really truly specialize in sleep.

Because then sometimes we're going to have people that creating products or what have you. So they're kind of newer foray into the topic of sleep. And it's funny how the minimalism seems to be prevalent in the people that are working on this all the time. And then also from like a building biology standpoint, less sleep.

Things being plugged in all around you and let's EMFs if you're mindful of that, you know, so  So good. Okay. Amazing. So we've got a sense of kind of what's in your space. And the last question would be, what would you say to date has made the biggest change to your sleep game or said another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your own sleep?

Right. Yeah. Right. Light, yes, which I know is right up your alley.  I'm obsessed. Yeah, yeah, light. So really making it a point to get natural light within the first 30 to 60 minutes after waking up. I mean, I try to get it first thing, but of course, not perfect. No one is. Yes.  But that truly has been a game changer for me.

Yeah. Um, I was someone who has been a chronic night owl and I, you know, I still, I still would identify as a night owl. I get it. I haven't been able to shift. Uh, earlier because of light and I wasn't able to do that until I actually started my own business because now I can, you know, set my own hours and, you know, really be mindful of when I actually want to start my day.

And so it's now  morning routine has become my favorite thing. Me too!  Whereas in the past, you know, it was like, hurry up, get up, rush, you know, grab something on the way. Maybe, um, you know, hurry up, get to work kind of thing. And I was like, you know what, this isn't the way I want to live. And so I knew that in order to really align with my, uh, You know preferred sleep schedule and to really be able to get Light in the morning and you know do things that I know are supportive of sleep quality Um for me personally, it wasn't until you know, I could set my own hours that You know, it's now possible.

So I know that it may not be possible for a lot of folks out there,  and especially those with kids, you know, probably when I start my own family, it's not going to be possible right for now. It's working very well. And yeah, I look forward to my warnings now. Oh, I completely get that. Curious if you have any thoughts or things to share insights on from your history in the medical field and some of the light management or any thoughts that you'd like to see or change or room for improvement in that space.

Yeah, I think there's so much room for improvement. Yeah, right? I think we're just scratching the surface on  light therapy. Yeah. And there are some gadgets, of course, out there that can be really helpful for folks who maybe wake up before the sun or for shift workers. But, you know, sometimes that's not enough.

I mean, natural light is ideal. That's what our brains are most responsive to.  And that to me, in my experience, that has been the best way to be able to shift someone's circadian rhythm is with natural light. You know, we do our best if artificial light therapy, you know, is also something that And just depending on the person's schedule is like the next best step.

So we use what we have,  but natural light at the end of the day has always been the most powerful way to to shift. And so I think that the conversation. Has been, you know, shifting to more. What can we do  to really optimize our light environment? I know light bulbs are, you know, there's now a lot of options for light bulbs and being able to replace, you know, the LEDs and all of that.

But I think we have a long way to go. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Oh, man. Well, it's great, though, to have someone like yourself who has been in that environment can speak to what that looks like and now can also share what else is possible. So that's really helpful as a spokesperson.  Amazing. Now, for anyone listening.

listening that now says, Oh my goodness, I would love to follow the work that you're doing. Work with you. I'd be curious on the different ways that they could work with you. What might you say to them? Yeah. So I'm at Dr. Sara Sleep on socials. Follow her.  You can find me on, um, on all social platforms at Dr.

Sarah Sleeve. And yeah, I think the best way to contact me is to just send me a message on Instagram. I'm usually the most active there. And that way we can chat and see, you know, what is going on. You're looking for in terms of, um, you know, an individualized approach to sleep optimization. I have a couple different ways to work with me, but really, um, one on one in, in terms of DNA based sleep and wellness coaching.

And then I do also have, um, A  CVTI starter course as well for those who maybe want to dip their toes and haven't tried it. And so I do have some options just depending on where someone is at in their sleep journey. And yeah, happy to chat and be a resource. Amazing. No, I love that. And I appreciate it too, because I like the nuance that you're speaking to CBT I in of, we do know that there are such amazing high efficacy ratings or, you know, results that we see for people as they go through CBT I.

And I think also potentially some, when we're self kind of putting ourselves through these protocols, maybe the lack of guidance could also be part of the problem for some people with the. Or results that they might face for themselves. So having someone like yourself to kind of guide them to get the most value out of the time put there and then marrying that with some of these other kind of personalized approaches.

Because then that speaks to the fact that we're not all robots and we have different considerations and things to be aware of. So I love that you're putting that kind of whole puzzle together. Amazing.  Yeah, absolutely. Did we leave anything out? Anything that you want to share and anything that we missed as it relates to the work that you're doing for women or from an epigenetic standpoint?

I think we've covered it, Molly. I mean, you ask such amazing questions, and I so appreciate you having me on here just to, you know, share what I'm doing and in my world. And, um, I just,  as just kind of a last closing, um, statement, um, just know for those that are out there who maybe feel like they tried all the things and nothing seems to be working, um, There's a lot that often goes overlooked and you know, this is where the optimization piece I think a lot of um folks in the medical field and those that are more like in traditional settings They may be missing and so know that There's a lot that we can work with even if you feel like you've tried everything because chances are  There's probably something that we could you know work on or optimize  It's such a cool and use the word rabbit hole and I couldn't agree more of the various ways that we can impact our sleep results and then have the happy kind of spillover of in order to impact our sleep results, it might require looking at some of those other areas, the nutrition piece that you spoke to hormones and.

So much more. So, so great. Well, so appreciate the time and the work that you're doing. We need so many people out on this mission to really make a difference with the number of it. Everyone sleeps and yet we're seeing the need to have just more and more people in this conversation with the level and the breadth of knowledge that you're bringing to the table.

So really appreciate it. Um, and more to come. Yes. Thank you so much, Molly. I so appreciate you having me on. Thank you!  You've been listening to the Sleep is a Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet.

Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years. Five years and counting and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleep as a skill. com forward slash newsletter to sign up.

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