175: Nikko Kennedy, Birth Worker & Perinatal Wellness Educator, A Quantum & Circadian Biology Approach To Sleep Specifically For New Moms!

Welcome to the Sleep as a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world looks.

sleep. Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness.

And I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

Welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. Today, we're delving into the fascinating intersection of circadian rhythms, pregnancy, and postpartum care with our special guest, Nico Kennedy. Nico is a prenatal quantum biology practitioner and certified labor and postpartum doula, bringing a unique blend of science and holistic care to her work with a background in biology and psychology.

And as a mother of four, Nico has firsthand experience and deep expertise in how circadian alignment can impact the prenatal journey from pregnancy to newborn sleep patterns. We'll explore practical strategies for optimizing light exposure, supporting immune health and empowering new moms with the tools they need for better sleep and overall well being.

Get ready for an enlightening conversation that blends science and technology. science and practical wisdom. Now we're going to get right into the podcast, but first a few words from our sponsors. And please remember that these sponsors really keep this whole podcast going so that we can get free information out to all of you.

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You're investing in your health, wellbeing, and quality of life. So again, go to you block out spelled the letter U block out. and use code sleep as a skill for a discount and welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. This is going to be a really unique episode to this podcast and something that I have really felt has been a void or area that I absolutely need to get more content for people around.

And I think so many people just could be so well served. In this arena. So this gets is going to really address some things that we've never talked about on here. So get ready get excited Nico kennedy, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here I really love getting your invitation to come to this podcast because you have such great content around sleep and you're really circadian savvy And I have found this to be such a crucial part of the perinatal journey And so i'm really excited to share what i've learned because it's been It's been so impactful for me, uh, as well as the clients that I've served across the years that I've been doing this.

So it's just really fun to talk about and also really powerful in how impactful it can be for people, as you know, from your own journey. And so then just imagine if you're working with yourself and a newborn. All the more so, especially because the newborn period is when our circadian rhythms are first set in life.

And so, if we can get this newborn period set for the next generation, it's like, just so amazing how well off they could be. Compared with what we all grew up with, with so much circadian disruption from, you know, just not knowing the things that actually lead to good sleep. Oh, so well said and just the way you even describe that and circadian savvy this points to I'm going to usually I say this for the end, but I'm going to say it right now.

Make sure you're following Nico and she just has a way with words clearly if you can already tell her newsletter is awesome and chock full of great information. And I'm often pointing people towards this resource and beyond. She has also lots of ways that people can work with her. But I think you're going to want to get in on this conversation because she's really helping to set the stage for this topic.

Now, I've not done a great job when I people will come my way and they'll ask about kids and sleep. And I often say, Oh, that's not my area. I don't do this. I don't go there. However, some blanket statements I'll say are that bringing about this circadian alignment for all humans and animals and what have you just the whole world of it can be beneficial.

And I kind of leave it at that. So you're going to get us even much more nuanced in this conversation. So I'm wondering if you can share how did you even find yourself expert in this area? Oh, goodness. Well,  it probably started. I mean, it definitely started with my own having kids and Somewhere during my first pregnancy, my husband found information about blocking blue light at night and, um, non native EMF.

So he started turning all the lights off and actually, um, disconnecting the power in our bedroom during that time. And I was kind of like, well, if this will help, maybe sure. Okay. And he's like, you're not allowed to use the hotspot and be like, Oh, okay. You  know, I'm in my baby land. I'm, you know, going through pregnancy, my first time, going through this.

And, um, Then as time went on, um, so I was a full time student and I was in that time when like online students really became a thing. So I, um, by the time my daughter, um, had grown into toddlerhood, I was going to school full time online and had the full time online job  starting east coast from Pacific.

So waking up at four in the morning to try to knock out a bunch of hours of work before my daughter would wake up, finish work in the early afternoon and then do my schoolwork. And so it was. Just a time of huge circadian dysregulation and I started having a lot of immune system problems that I had never had before.

Um, so then the whole topic of light at night kind of came up again at around that time, which was a couple years after we'd first experimented in pregnancy and then just kind of thrown it away. And then we started doing it again. And so it was really through my own lived experience that I was like, whoa, this makes a huge difference because once we got more serious about blocking light at night.

A couple years after that, I realized I hadn't had seasonal allergies or the other immune system problems I was having. And so then I kind of went looking back and I was like, Oh, I think that it's because of the blue light at night thing. Um,  then, uh,  Few more years later, um, a couple of kids later, I had a very stressful pregnancy.

Um, we live in Southern Oregon and there's a huge amount of wildfires here. And so we actually got evacuated while I was pregnant. Um, and so my whole blocking blue light at night routine had just kind of fallen by the wayside and it was really stressful. And when my daughter was born, um, after that wildfire, she needed some support in the NICU.

And I.  in that time, found out that people working there had no idea about circadian rhythms. And during the week I spent, my daughter was fine. She was,  what did they tell me? It was one of the shortest rap sheets we've ever seen on one of these babies. So, you know, we were kind of borderline there, like we were there for monitoring.

And then that just led to the whole cascade of things at night. And, um,  so I knew about babies because I've always wanted to work babies. I told you, I was going to school. I was going to school thinking I was going to become an OBGYN.  Realized when it came time to apply to med school that that was not actually my particular path like those people are amazing But I didn't want that surgical training.

I wanted to support families, um more holistically And to go way back this comes to my own experience  I have a lot of stories to tell anyways, but let me hear it Do you want the cliff notes or the long story? I'm going along for it, I guess anyways, so Um, I was supposedly, you know, the story goes I was born by an emergency cesarean Um, the first birth that I ever saw was my younger brother born at home.

So they, the reason given for my cesarean was a nuchal cord, which is the umbilical cord wrapped around the neck.  My younger brother had this, but he was attended by a midwife at home rather than an OB in the hospital. And he, and so the first birth I saw was him being born in my, um, in my parents bedroom.

He had the nuchal cord and, uh, was able to be born through it. You know, I watched the midwife unwrap him and he was kind of blue and they did like the at home resuscitation, got him going. He turned pink up and, you know, then I watched him grow up. Um, I saw another birth while I was a preteen. And so these kinds of experiences had led me to thinking, you know, I want to be a birth.

I want to see birth happen better. And so, I had done a doula training and was doing doula consults and all of that after school. So that was where I  put all of it together through my own experience in the NICU, right? Then it was suddenly like, Oh, these things I'm doing at home with blocking blue light  at night.

I hadn't told any of my clients about that because that was like my personal health thing. And then when I went into the NICU experience, I was like, wait, what?  These intersect. This is huge. And so that was when I did all of the study and I found the Quantum Biology Collective and did their certification program just to like make sure, fill in all the gaps, because I was a self study with this.

Sure. And so then I did their certification and um,  I've been writing about it. Um, I guess one final little piece you mentioned my way with words and I  At the very end of my degree when I hit when I was like, oh looking at pre meds programs And I was like, well, maybe I'll do midwifery looking at nurse midwifery programs all of that just it wasn't clicking It wasn't clicking with what I was seeing that the way that I wanted to support families.

So I took a hard swerve and added a year to my program to do science writing. And so I was like, well, I can still apply all of this information to work, but I'm going to communicate information and try to like, get at the, the groundwork of how people are understanding this whole process and try to reach more people than I could just as an individual practitioner.

I love working with individuals, of course, but like my big, big vision is for the entire  ecosystem surrounding birth to Uh, transform in certain ways that I've really have kind of honed in on sunlight exposure, circadian rhythms, um, nighttime light exposure, um, right, basically like these circadian and quantum biology concepts.

And to get those worked into prenatal education, to get worked into the birth suite, because this is a place that we're really lacking right now, that could really, really improve outcomes. And we see this and know this from the research. And I know this from working with clients who are putting it into play.

And suddenly having really great sleep where they've been, you know, that's been a pain point for them their whole lives. And then just like hearing them be like, wow, this is amazing. Like, um, one gal used to have waking nightmares almost every morning. She was having the sleep paralysis and like not being able to wake up, but like in these really stressful situations in her mind.

And so we got her blocking blue light at night and getting morning sunlight and Just within like a week, she was no longer having that sleep paralysis experience in the morning anymore, um, and also really helpful for her fertility as well. I think she was able to conceive after that, and so there's just, you know, the testimonials that I get back really tell me that I'm going in the right direction with all of this.

So interesting. So a couple things to pan out. If we zoom out, one of the things that you've distilled all of this down to is one of my favorite sayings. And so I've so aligned. That was one of the things that first clicked for me when I found your information was brighter days, darker nights. And often some of the things that we're talking about it.

So the practical application can feel like, Oh, okay, now I'm getting red light bulbs and I'm getting blue and all these things, but at its core. That's our goal, is this brighter days, darker nights. Can you help us bridge the gap between why, yes, we might understand this for optimization, for adults, what have you, but why is this also so important for children, for the reproductive process?

How does that correlate? Awesome question. So this is where, like, I had not put, like I said, I was in this for 10 years doing doula work and working on my own circadian rhythm, not putting the pieces together. Right. And it was that next moment that I had where suddenly they interlace. And I was like, Whoa, there's something here.

I'm going to dive into it. And what I found was that every single, uh, major, uh, Reproductive disorder, um,  ties is correlated with circadian disruption and not only that, but all of the comorbidities that women go into their pregnancies with also correlate with circadian disruption. So when there's circadian disruption, a lot of really poor processes in the body are disrupted.

And so a lot of times, Um, you know, there's several different layers where it could take place. So like someone who's having a low amount of disruption, maybe they don't notice they're able to conceive, they have their pregnancy, but then they start having a lot of negative symptoms like really severe morning sickness.

Um, and then going on to like some of the things you might see later on, like trouble with their liver or preeclampsia or, you know, the different,  all the things that kind of lead to trouble towards the end of pregnancy actually tie back to sleep quality, especially in the first trimester.  So that in that sense, the baby can still often be born healthy.

And so the mom's body is damaged, um, for the sake of bringing forth this child, um, at the next level, a more severe case than the mom's body is damaged. And the baby might be born with particular challenges, um, with like oxidative stress, for example, uh, often related to a lack of melatonin, which is a super powerful antioxidant in addition to being a sleep hormone.

Um,  And so in that case, both mom and baby are suffering, and then at the higher level, uh, severe circadian disruption can actually, um, be correlated with infertility itself, so if the mom's body is in a really poor state, it doesn't even have the extra energy to expend for reproduction, and so that's like the reversible infertility.

So, I this infertility words one that I've been thinking a lot about lately because we don't say sterility, right? Sterility is you're not able to have babies, right? And so  they're a woman is different than an infertile woman, where in many cases, infertility is reversible.  So with, uh, lifestyle change and, um, for men, lifestyle change, sometimes there's surgeries that can be done.

Um, but oftentimes it is just with lifestyle alone, over time, infertility can be corrected. And so that's why we don't just jump to the sterile diagnosis. The sterile diagnosis comes after years or with finding, like, a really severe problem. And a lot of things we're finding are tied back to the time that we're in the womb.

Um, so that's why I was saying there's, like, the hope for families right now of what they can do for themselves to have a better time.  But then there's also like the hope for future generations because, um, mom circadian disruption in the womb is correlated with baby's future risk of every single mental illness across their lifespan all the way out to dementia is correlated to disruption they experienced in the womb.

Um, not to mention all of the metabolic disorders, um, which we're seeing more and more of these days and, um, immune system problems. And basically, because the circadian rhythm is such a functional part of biology, when there's problems with circadian function, it trickles outward to all of the other systems.

And at this point, there's still quite a bit of mystery about why, with, uh, melatonin disruption, one person might have problems in the immune system, like I did, whereas other people might have problems in the reproductive system, or other people might, um, you know, be gaining a lot of weight, like, all of that is kind of mysterious still, but there's this core thing that when you, uh, write circadian rhythms and stabilize them and strengthen them, then It's like a weight being lifted on the person.

And so same goes for pregnancy. When we see strong and stable circadian rhythms in pregnancy, that's highly correlated with really good outcomes for mama and baby.  Um, even just with like having stronger, more powerful contractions during labor is related to the mom's melatonin level. And the melatonin is actually a hormone that is prepping the uterus to receive oxytocin to squeeze.

So we always hear about oxytocin when  Labor doesn't start or if it stalls, they oftentimes will augment with pitocin, which is a synthetic form of oxytocin. Um, well, there's a lot of research that also augmenting with melatonin at that time, um, will allow a lower dose of pitocin because of the synergistic effect of those two hormones.

So there's these really acute moments where circadian, um, biology and quantum biology are so important, like the time of birth. Um, but then there's also like the longstanding. Time of like day in day out. How does this process affect the body's ability to heal and regenerate itself? Wow. As you're speaking, I am, it's occurring to me that I feel like we need multiple episodes because it's almost like the preparation for having, so being able to reproduce is you can work with people to address that.

So really optimizing their circadian health, but then during pregnancy and after pregnancy, so it's, we've got a lot to dive into. So maybe. We could begin because we do get a lot of questions for new moms and then often it's just kind of thrown out well good luck prepare to be tired and that's kind of what it is.

So I'm wondering  right through your lens and I know we're skipping a lot of topics but if we're looking at that for a moment. How do you think about this topic for individuals and some of the things I see in the practical applications, it's I'll hear people say, okay, well I just have horrible, not horrible, but I'll have like rough nights and a lot of interrupted sleep, so then I'm sleeping in odd hours.

I'm just grabbing sleep wherever I can. So often not even thinking about the light, dark piece. So maybe you can help guide us from there of how this could serve us in navigating that time. Yeah, uh, absolutely. And I love to speak to this because this was an area where I had a really big personal breakthrough with my sleep and that was led from, Uh, that I came to by reading research.

Um, so as you know, like I have a science degree, I have the science writing background. I've had a bunch of classes on statistical analysis and like research design, right? So I love looking at paper studies and pulling apart and then finding information that's like useful. Right? Like that was one of the reasons and I'm so sorry to interrupt you but you get me excited because one of the things that I really really appreciate about your writing is that and I again encourage people to sign up because you do a great job of citing source material which we're not always seeing in the because this is kind of a new arena when we talk about quantum biology and circadian uh alignment.

And so it can easily be discounted or thrown out or, you know, speculative. And yet you do a fantastic job of actually giving us the source material. And clearly you are diving through that information. So I just want to underscore that because I think that is kind of rare. We're not always seeing that.

So yes, carry on.  Awesome. Thank you for that. I appreciate it because I do work really, really hard on that. And, um, it's. Just it's so interesting, uh, to me, but I know that it's not for everybody. So that's why I try to like find the nuggets that are useful. And so one of the ones that I found that was really useful for myself came out of, uh, the researcher who was actually one of the people who are the reason that we have bright light therapy for seasonal affective disorder that came out of his lab.

So he was one of the people who was looking at light and how light affects sleep. And so he was having people in a sleep lab and giving them specific.  dark regimens. And so based on his understanding, The whole idea that we need eight hours of consolidated sleep, he says, that's an artificial construct of a 16 hour artificial light environment.

And that under more natural lighting experiences that humans would have had, our sleep becomes polyphasic.  So when you have longer than a 14 hour stretch of darkness, human sleep naturally starts breaking into polyphasic chunks.  No other animal, uh, on the planet sleeps in eight consolidated hours the way that they tell humans that we should.

So I, of course, had grown up with this, you need eight hours of sleep a night, and so for my first couple, uh, my first few pregnancies, believing that I was supposed to get all the sleep I needed in eight hours, And sometimes scheduling my day so that I really only had eight hours to get that sleep because of like, you know, work and school schedules or whatever was happening.

Um,  and as a new mom, that is impossible. Um, I can tell you, if you're caring for a newborn around the clock, there's no way that you can get all the sleep you need in an eight hour chunk of time in bed. So when I read this paper polyphasic  sleep can be natural if the light environment is right. Okay. I was like, whoa, okay, and that completely changed my mindset around the sleep interruptions.

Um, and I, uh, created a class, which is one of my most, uh, popular offerings, was the good news about sleep interruptions in motherhood, because mom's sleep is interrupted. That's the good news. normal, that's physiological. So I've been looking at it and I'm like, there's no way that biology would set us up for failure here.

It's, it's right. Yeah. Right. I'm needing care around the clock. So there's no way that for a mom to be awake, caring for her baby around the clock is unnatural or detrimental to her. So, um,  I know that you are a fan of aura and for my, I have four children. My youngest is six months old. So this last year, my husband got me an aura for Christmas.

You He's like, you're pregnant. You're doing all of this sleep stuff. Um, let's, let's look at the numbers. Let's really do this, right? Amazing. Love that. Your husband rocks. I'm a fan. The two of you together.  So good. Okay. So awesome. If you've tuned into the show or followed any of our content here at Sleep is a Skill, you may have heard that Everyone that we work with, where's the or ring.

And as a result, we have amassed a very large database of or ring users and get to see what really moves the needle for people when it comes to their sleep measurably. Now, because we have so much data around sleep optimization, many ask what they can do to improve their sleep quality. And for years, my answer has been that one of the few things I've seen makes such an overnight difference is the use of a quality cooling mattress topper.

Not just any ordinary topper that claims to be cooling with like gels or what have you, but an actual cooling topper that uses water and can be dynamically adjusted to suit your unique needs and preferences. Now, this is why I am so excited to announce that 8 Sleep is now an official sponsor of the podcast.

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So if you're ready to take your sleep to the next level, head on over to eight, sleep and use the code. Sleep is a skill, all one word at checkout for a discount.  Today, I want to talk to you about something that often flies under the radar, but is absolutely crucial for great sleep minerals. Now you've heard me talk about circadian rhythms, light exposure, temperature control, and more, but let's dive into the foundational elements that fuel our body's ability to sleep deeply and restoratively specifically minerals, our modern lifestyle with its processed foods and environmental stressors.

can leave us depleted of essential minerals. This depletion can mess with our sleep quality, leading to issues like restless legs, poor sleep initiation, and waking up in the middle of the night. Enter beam minerals. Beam minerals are designed to replenish your body's essential mineral levels. providing the building blocks your body needs for optimal health.

And this includes better sleep. What I love about beam is that they use a hundred percent bioavailable liquid minerals, which means your body can actually absorb and utilize them instantly without any fillers or additives. Magnesium, for example, is known as nature's relaxant, helping to calm the nervous system, support muscle relaxation, and some argue by extension can promote deep restful sleep.

Okay. Beam's magnesium is sourced in a way that ensures maximum absorption and effectiveness, making it a key part of my sleep routine. But beam doesn't stop there. They've created a comprehensive blend that includes other vital minerals like potassium, calcium, and trace minerals that work synergistically to support your overall health.

And of course your sleep. The result, you wake up feeling more refreshed, more balanced and ready to take on the day. So if you've been struggling with sleep and feel like you've tried everything, it might be time to look at what's happening on a cellular level. Bean minerals can help fill in those gaps.

And give your body the support it needs for truly restorative sleep. So head on over to Beam Minerals, spelled BEAM today, and use the code Sleep as a skill, all one word at checkout to get a special discount on your order, your body and your sleep. Well, thank you.  So I tracked all of my sleep and while I was in the first trimester, um,  I needed 12 hours in bed to get my full amount of sleep.

And that was like,  and I would look at it and if I didn't get that, then I would need a nap. Um, in the day and it was really, really eye opening for me because I had already had the breakthrough that, oh, it's okay if I have sleep interruptions, like my mindset was in the right place. place. But even before my baby was actually born, my sleep needs had changed drastically.

So that was really powerful to see, like, how, because, uh, for people who don't use aura, it gives you like a score for your overall wellbeing, as well as tracking your score. So you're looking at your activity and, um, the different parameters that it can track. And then it's telling you how well you're doing.

And if you're having an off day, if you should take it easy, or if you're doing great and like maybe do a little more activity. So, um, I was having this. through this text showing me like, no, you're on the right track. This feeling that you need more sleep is true. Because look, if you don't do it, see how you suffer.

And  and yeah, objectively and subjectively. Sure. Okay. Yeah, exactly. So for people who are in the postpartum state or pregnancy, too. So second trimester was not so bad. I was able to get by with like nine or 10 hours in bed. And that would give me about the amount of sleep. And then, you know, Um, after my baby was born, then it was like all the way back again of needing that really long time in bed.

So traditional postpartum care would have mom in bed for the whole first month of life for her baby. Uh, generally in a dim environment with that is very warm. And we've talked a little bit about melatonin. Maybe we don't have time to get all into this, but there are a couple sources of melatonin, right?

And so I'm not talking about popping melatonin pills. Um, definitely a conversation for another time. I'm talking about the ways that our body can make its own melatonin. So one is through darkness. Um, our brain will release melatonin after a couple of hours in darkness. And this is one of the places where new moms particularly get really messed up, is that if they don't know that the melatonin is important, if they don't know that their body needs a couple of hours of darkness to make it.

So babies need to be fed newborns, um,  about every two hours, and it takes about two to three hours for the melatonin to start secreting. So if a mom is turning on a white light. at night while she's getting up to feed her bed, then that's going to tank all of her melatonin. Because if you think about it takes about two hours, as soon as her melatonin is about to start turning on, she's turning on that light to take care of her baby.

And so then that's putting her back into the date's time, excess cortisol reality, and she's not getting that healing that she should be. And not only that, but that's communicated through the breast milk. Um, Because like the 3 a. m breast milk is the peak of melatonin secretion which babies don't make their own They're relying on their mom for that So the mom's not having the melatonin she needs and then the baby is not having the melatonin it needs And so then it's this cascade of both of them not having all of the nourishing healing that would have been Uh their right Um, if they were receiving traditional postpartum care of being in a closed quiet dim dark warm space and to get to that second You  Uh, way that we make melatonin is through infrared heat, our mitochondria will produce melatonin.

So that's where like red light therapy panels have become so popular because people aren't getting out into the sunshine. Um, they're not doing the traditional sweat lodges or, um, sauna bathing or the different ways that people would have done it in the past. And so now like these red light panels are really great because it's a way to get in the modern world, this infrared light that stimulates cellular melatonin.

Which is also really key, like a lot of traditions around the world have considered that postpartum moms need extra heat and so they're giving them extra warming soups and teas and bundling them up and making sure that there's no drafts in the room because that melatonin is key to the mom's well being, to her healing process, and particularly her mental well being.

So it's, there's a really, really crucial time and in that beginning phase, like the baby is really relying on the mom to set its circadian rhythm. Uh, so that it can start having more dates like daytime waking and nighttime sleeping because at first they're just kind of free running around the clock.  So interesting.

Actually, this topic I think I shared with you before we hit record was one of the things that I really was so intrigued about in one of the newsletters you sent out, which was so fascinating on this topic of this transference of melatonin through breast milk, being aware of that production, things that would impact that.

And then just seeing that ripple effect. So what would the practical applications of this look like for the average person? And they're like, Oh, well, you know, all this time in bed and I've got work and I've got all these things. So it's, we're backing up and we are aligning with the rhythms of nature.

We're speaking to your core ethos of brighter days, darker nights. And when those nights appear during that whole time where we're spending more time in bed during the summer. time. The entire process is doused in red light when awake, I'm guessing, or do you have a certain protocol? And where does the red light therapy go in all of this?

I know I asked you like 10 questions, but  what does it look like in the evening? I know, right, right. Yeah, so there's several phases of newborn development, right? And, uh, there's a case study.  study done on a baby that this was the late 90s. I think it was 1998 that this was published. And so this was a newborn baby who they were trying to create this physiological experience to go back before artificial light at night.

And so they had a baby that was only exposed to sunlight. They had no augmented light whatsoever for this newborn. And it started showing circadian parameters much earlier than what we think of as normal. Because if you look at the research, they are studying babies and saying, this is normal circadian development.

based on babies that are under artificial light at night and artificial light in the day and they're not being taken outside. So there's, you know, some places in the research where you kind of have to read through and be like, wait, how was the study design done? Yes, I think this is normal, but is this actually normal?

So, um, for the baby first, their temperature rhythm forms. So they have, um, like, uh, higher temperature in the day and lower temperature at night, just like human, just like adults. Sure. That's the first circadian sign that newborns show. And then next after that is their wake rhythm. And then after that is their melatonin secretion and sleep rhythm.

So, I mean, it's hard for parents because the wake rhythm does establish before the sleep, before the sleep rhythm establishes, right? Just make sense. So because newborn babies melatonin, it's that first like 45 days,  where the baby Like, we really want that, like, cool, calm, dark, quiet environment as a whole.

And then, of course, like, if mom feels like cracking a window for some fresh air, like, that's great. And if mom's feeling up for it to go outside and get some natural sunlight, like, that's also great. But not all moms are ready for that at the time. It depends on, you know, how well nourished they were, how, what their birth was like, um, are they healing from any surgeries.

Um, Right? So like there's different care that would be needed for a mom who's had a cesarean versus a mom who had a vaginal and also different care for a mom who had a vaginal birth that was like really smooth and uncomplicated versus one that maybe lasted for multiple days and had hours of pushing and you know there's a lot of variation there and what kind of rest a mom will need.

But basically that first month is when you want really to be focused on like candlelight if you can. That's really nice. Um, a lot of traditional cultures would have, um, like oil massage for mom and baby. So again, get that extra warmth there because traditionally moms weren't really bathing in this time because of the risk of infection.

We didn't have sanitary water. So sponge bath, um, so sponge bath, which is also really stimulating to the skin nowadays, moms are just like hopping right into the shower or whatever. And we have clean water, so that's good. great. That can be another source of heat that stimulates that melatonin. Once mom's ready to start going out and getting morning sunlight, that morning sunlight is what's going to stimulate her baby's wake for them and get them moving into the next phase of their circadian development.

So as early as possible, where it's feeling good for everyone. It's going to be different for everyone. I don't have a hard, fast rule about this many days, right? All right. But once it feels right to go and first thing get that morning sunlight, um, that is the biggest thing that will then move the baby into the next phase of rather than being an around the clock baby of being a morning wake baby.

And then, you know, that morning wake and then having lots of social stimulation and the like noisier brighter day having guests and visitors introducing the baby a lot of cultures would have an actual ceremony where they would go and introduce the baby to the sun like that was a member of the family you'd go out like hello baby greet the sun hello sun meet and bless my baby  and same with the moon too and there would be a lunar greeting activity um So these are things that, you know, historically were realities that a lot of today's families aren't doing, but there is of course a movement to bring back these traditional practices and you can look at them and be like, Oh, I see how this supports the baby's circadian development and moves it from one phase into the next.

So eventually baby will start having their nighttime sleep rhythm as they're able to go longer, um, without between feeds. And so it has a lot to do with their, you know, that newborns are very fragile. Their stomachs are unbelievably tiny. when they're first born and that's why they have to eat so much as their digestive system is just so, um, micro.

And then as it grows, they can last for longer and, and, um, and then they can sleep longer safely without getting too low blood sugar. So that's like, it's, it's physiological. sense that there's a gradual emergence from the postpartum window into toddler reality. And it takes two to three years for everything to be like fully functioning in a baby's circadian rhythm.

So when we think about like extended breastfeeding, that makes sense. That's a continued support for that baby because of the hormonal cues that are inside of breast milk.  Okay, wow, so interesting and obviously this huge topic. So I'm curious one of the things that we'll talk about for helping adults to live this kind of circadian aligned lifestyle will often speak to the sunlight anchoring process.

While all these things can happen in variability of our lifestyles and modern environments, but if we're anchoring to align as much as possible with those rhythms of nature and getting that first sunlight exposure as consistently as possible in alignment with these rhythms. That can really be a place to stand.

So I'm curious, do you see that also applying in the same way? Cause I hear your emphasis on the bright light exposure in the morning. Is that in the face of all the different feedings and times and adjustment that happened, is that something where we kind of make sure we have that consistency of, and that's.

anchored with that specifically around sunrise. So even if you had a rougher than normal night or what have you, that you still get yourself out there and your baby to expose that place to begin. Okay. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. No matter what your sleep is like, it's really the circadian rhythm is, is dependent on your environment.

Not so much your schedule, like your schedule and habits. Those are all separate. secondary site givers, uh, time givers, whereas the primary time givers are your light dark cycle and your feed fast schedule. So what time you're waking up and going to sleep, like even if you have not been getting a whole lot of sleep through the night, like later on, teething is a big deal.

And again, families are going through teething. Uh, melatonin is secreted in the saliva and as part of how, um,  teeth are protected right from like rot and things. Um, but also melatonin has. pain relieving capabilities. So when families start going through the teething, uh, reality, if they have a lot of circadian disruption, then they're not having as high nighttime melatonin.

And so the teething process can actually be more painful. And then that's like another huge toddler issue where they're like, you know, going through this toddler thing, they've likely, a lot of families have weaned their baby by that time, and then they're up, up, up all night long, and then trying to rush off to daycare in the morning.

Um,  it's a really, really challenging sleep time for a lot of families, where just getting the circadian environment dimmed will be so impactful, and especially getting that morning sunlight piece, because that morning sunlight, and then daytime light exposure, and another, Another piece from Traditional Cultures I Love, they did a study where they went over and were observing over in Nepal and measuring mama's vitamin D status and baby's vitamin D status and breast milk vitamin D.

And so they found that babies can actually have higher vitamin D status than their moms. And they were like, how does that happen? And even a short period of solar exposure, it will raise the vitamin D content in the breast milk faster than it will raise it in the mom's blood serum. And then  through that, her baby can also have a higher status than her because it's getting more through the breast milk.

But then also in that culture where they were looking at that study, um, outdoor breastfeeding and outdoor baby massage were natural parts of everything. And, um, I know you don't have children, but for anyone who's had children, um, and done breastfeeding, it can be really messy. Like, I totally get the wanting to breastfeed outside when it comes to, like, the laundry and everything.

And, like, especially for women that have high supply, like, it can be spraying everywhere, and it's, like, sticky and messy. And so I'm thinking like, if I didn't have a washing machine, like I would definitely do that. It all seems to make sense. Yeah. When we reverse like that. Wow.  Fascinating. Oh my gosh. I feel like we could talk to you all day long with the information you have.

And I love your ability to Kind of pluck these interesting studies. So given this, I'm curious now where you're at in your life to learn a bit about how you're managing your own sleep and what we might be able to glean from that. So we do ask every person that comes on for questions. And our first question is always, what does your nighttime sleep routine look like right now?

Yeah, wonderful. Okay. So, uh, nighttime sleep. Um,  So to understand a little bit more about my life, um, I have four children raging in ages from, uh, 11 down to a six month old baby. And so we, you know, it's a big, big, busy packed, uh, day. And, um, so by nighttime, I'm usually very excited for the end of the day to be whining.

And so we're, what that looks like for us, it's winter time right now. So sunlight is, you know, going down like crazy. 4 35 p. m. Like so getting dinner is off like ideally we would have dinner before sunset, but in these really, you know, long winter days that it doesn't necessarily happen. So we have candle at dinner.

Um, I have like salt lamps on the floor in my home to give kind of like a red ambiance down low.  Yeah, we've had other sleep lights, um, little battery power sleep lights that have been really great. I really enjoyed those, um, and different things just to keep the whole environment so that we don't have like overhead light.

That's really important to us. And, um, try to have like a protein based dinner too, because after dark, carbohydrate metabolism changes. Uh, and that's based on circadian digestion. We won't get all into it, but anyways, I'm trying to have this like, you know, protein rich, but somewhat light dinner, candlelit, um, and then stay up a little bit, you know, a couple hours, you know, they'll like draw a candlelight or, um, we'll sing lullabies as a really important part of our nighttime routine and try to get everyone to bed.

Um, within a couple hours of dinner time. So that looks like around seven, eight o'clock here. And that is our routine. Um, I kind of have like a hierarchy because a lot of,  a lot of families will ask me about nighttime TV. Um, and  I know a lot of people are doing TV for bed. So I'm like, okay, I'm just going to slip in a little bit of pragmatics here because I know  totally different from what a lot of people listening will have going on.

And a lot of people are doing this.  So if doing nighttime TV, it's like want to have like calm, slow shows. And sometimes we will do this too, especially if my husband's managing bedtime, it might be like a really slow, gentle show. And we have a like really deep red filter over the screen.  So it's not like a big, crazy, loud, booming sound system, adrenaline rich show with red lights on, which I've seen people doing.

It's like, okay, your red lights are great, but like, it's a holistic thing. So like, we still want the mood, everything to be going.  And so that show, so that's like the, like one level. Then next level would be like a bedtime story by Candlelight. And then for me, like, I think lullabies are the gold standard because we get to like,  it's just a really cozy feeling with everyone singing together and the sound vibrations, um, can help with like oxytocin and that oxytocin can help the melatonin flow faster.

And I can't tell you how many times my kids will be like crazy and like, ah, and be like, okay, time to sing. And then halfway through Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star, they're like Oh, interesting. Such a huge thing. So they sing with me like now that we have, you know, older kids when it was just my daughter. So anyways, that's it.

It's candlelight, um, gentle, calm activities culminating with lullabies and snuggles and bed. What? I've never had lullabies be on  anyone's rundown. So I'm very happy you're the first one.  I mean, granted, I know I need to do a lot more content for that are focused more for children and what have you. And that has been a missing, but still I love that.

I feel like I appreciate your hearkening back to kind of ancestral days and bringing that wisdom to our modern society. That's awesome. Okay, so those are your nights. It's kind of a capture of what we might see in your evenings. How about your mornings? Yeah, mornings wake up and it's first thing outside.

Um, that's the very first thing. It's just going outside no matter what time it is. And like I said, I have a six month old baby. Um, I don't know how it is for other people, but for, I have two boys and two girls and my boys are always up before my girl. I mean, you know, 85 percent of the time my boys are up before my girls.

Yes. So it's often waking up and with the new baby and my, um, boy, he's five right now and we were. We go outside. So sometimes it's well before sunrise, but we still just go outside anyways, and we'll just keep popping our heads outside, um, across the morning as we're getting breakfast going. And, um, a lot of times that's also grounding and it is winter time here.

So we use leather soled moccasins when it's too cold to actually get bare feet on the ground. Um, and again, like I'm saying, this is lifestyle stuff that like, I've worked a lot. I used to live in Portland, um, in a busy, like upstairs apartment and all of that, like,  would have been so much more difficult in that time, right, in that space.

So I know that that's how other people, you know, there's challenges, but still, like, even there, it's possible to get outside, you just maybe have to, you know, maybe you're going to get dressed first, whereas I might go outside in my pajamas still,  now, whereas there, I would have probably been like, first thing, get up, like get dressed and then go outside.

And, you know, now I don't have to do that, which is really great. I can do that all that stuff later on, because to me, just prioritizing, you know, that morning thing. Otherwise, it's too easy to put off is what I found. If I, but the more things I put between myself and going outside, the more likely it is to actually to end up being several hours later before we actually go outside.

It's just so easy. And it's so easy to look through the window and feel like, Oh, I see that morning's happening. And, uh, but there's frequencies of sunlight that just. Get filtered out by the windows. So that's why I like outside no matter what, even if you sleep until 1130 in the morning, still going outside to get your body primed to that time of the day is really important.

Yes, so important. I love that. Okay, so you have that practice by day. And then as far as your any things that we might see in your environment. So we asked about your nightstand, but that can expand. Yes to. Mm-Hmm.  , you know, any particular call of like ambiance or thing? I know you spoke to the candlelight and certain components there.

Is there anything else we'd see in your environment, in the, you know, in your bedroom area? Yeah, that's, uh, lovely and I was actually kind of excited about this because. Like I said, I have a very, um, like kind of, you know, it's not unique, but it is, you know, different than a lot of the people I talk with, um, because of having four children in the home.

Um, I work from home. I do a lot of consults, uh, and I also work as a doula. So I have, um,  I will be on call for birth, right? And so this might be unique among other people who are on call at birth that you won't see my cell phone on my nightstand.  I have my cell phone outside of the bedroom with the ringer up really loud.

If I'm going to go and deal with the phone, I'm going out of the bedroom to do it. I don't keep it right next to. And because of having all the kids in my home and my husband works from home.  He's a musician and so, and so he has like a syndicated radio show that he gets to produce from home, which is really cool.

And then he does different, um, like if he does go out, he's usually like loading up in the afternoon and going out. So our, in the daytime, our home is really, really busy and it's often just super chaotic. And so I have a little nightstand that I just absolutely love because it's my little space where, uh, inside of it, I have some oil massage, um, I've been really into just unrefined sesame oil and that's for me and the baby and on top of it is just totally blank and I take off my watch and drop it on there.

Drop my glasses and my watch and like just hearing the sound of those things clinking. I like trigger. I'm like, okay, the days of our clunk clunk.  Amazing. And I'm assuming too thoughtful about given your knowledge of EMF. And so you're minimizing all those things plugged in around you and all that stuff.

So the minimal is  There's probably some thought behind that. Amazing. Very cool. Yeah. Okay. And so then, given all these things and your just fascination with this arena around circadian rhythm, being circadian savvy, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to your individual sleep game or said another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your own sleep?

Yeah. Oh, for me in this phase of life, it was definitely that it was impossible to do with only eight hours in bed. Yeah. But that was the biggest change for me and it required a huge lifestyle shift and also a huge, um,  Yeah, I mean, everything kind of had to change to make more space for sleep and bedtime and, Cuddles, like even older children still need a lot of cuddles and not everyone really realizes it.

But at the same time as the circadian rhythm is developing, our oxytocin system is also developing. So children who aren't like held and snuggled and maybe having traumatic experiences in early life can actually have fewer oxytocin receptors across their lifespan.  Making more time for all of that was the biggest shift for me personally.

It took a lot to really learn how to prioritize that. Wow, so interesting. Okay, so again, as I touched on, I feel like we'll have to do more, you know, content together in some way, shape, or form. So you've just got such great information. So for people listening, definitely share how can they learn more about you.

Also very curious about that. I think you said it was either a workshop or a course or what have you. Are there different types of things that people can go through? What do those look like? Yeah. Okay. So you can find me on my website, which is Nico Kennedy. com and that's For like one to one services and virtual doula or local doula.

Um, then my educational resources, uh, are all at www. brighterdaysdarkernights. com. And everything is in there. So if you're a practitioner, I have a practitioner program. If you're a parent, I have parent programs, so you can sign up and get a bunch for free. And if you upgrade to a paid subscription, you can get, um, like I said, that motherhood sleep class that I did.

You can get, um,  my pregnancy workshop that's like four hours of video kind of really diving into how all this works in pregnancy and postpartum and I have a course about physiological newborn jaundice and it's just growing all the time so everything is there it's a really really power packed subscription that you can get um or like I said you can just join for free and then just kind of keep up to date and you'll receive all of the new stuff that uh I'm researching.

Amazing. And I'm just looking at your site too. And so you even also offer the virtual doula visits as well. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, that's right. So to do a one on one consult with me about anything, fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum.  Yeah. And those are really amazing, uh, resource for people. I love doing it and we can really get one to one and then I have package rates for like more intense support too.

Amazing. Wow. Well, thank you so much for the work that you're doing. Thank you for taking the time to share this information with us. I'm sure people listening, the fact that you're able to put this all to speak to this, both from the practical side of things, but also really from from the science side of things.

So it adds that validity to some of these conversations. And it's this beautiful mix of both the simplicity of how life was and trying to bring that into our lifestyle, but also giving us the why that I think a lot of us crave on. Why is this so important? Why do I need to have the candles and the red light and the whole thing and you're kind of filling those gaps.

So thank you so much for the work you do. And I appreciate the time. Absolutely. Thank you so much for inviting me, Molly. This was really fun.  You've been listening to The Sound. Sleep as a skill podcast, the top podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday I send out the sleep obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet.

Fun facts. I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting. And it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleep as a skill. com forward slash newsletter to sign up.

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