191: Dr. Torrie Thompson, Functional Medicine Practitioner: Mold, Metals, & Mycotoxins—Could Thet Be Impacting Your Sleep…What to Do About It!

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of sleep as a skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change as an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world. sleep.

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Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness.

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And I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

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Welcome to today's episode of the Sleep is a Skill podcast. Today we are joined by a close friend and my very own doctor who is currently helping me to reduce my levels of mold, microtoxins, and metals that came as a result of living in moldy homes growing up and in college and post college. We will discuss how mold, microtoxins, and metals can disrupt your sleep, and most importantly, how you can recover from these and restore your health.

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Dr. Torrie Thompson, a leading expert in uncovering the root causes behind chronic symptoms. She specializes in optimizing health by identifying hidden toxins and infections like mold, Lyme, environmental toxins, and heavy metals. Her work helps clients perform at their highest level and feel their absolute best.

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Dr. Thompson's passion for this field stems from her own decade long health. battles as a teenager and young adult. Now she's dedicated to empowering others to take charge of their health and create the vibrant lives they deserve. In this episode, we unpack mold and sleep disruption hidden symptoms. You might be overlooking.

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how to test, diagnose, and detox from mold. And an important reminder, past mold exposure can linger in the body. That's what I'm dealing with. Silently contributing to longterm health and even sleep challenges. So we're going to get into all these topics and more, but first a few words from our sponsors and do remember that these sponsors keep this podcast going.

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And welcome to the Sleep as a Skill podcast. I am delighted to have a now two time guest return to the podcast. And not only is this a guest that's going to provide us great information around how to optimize your sleep, she's also a dear friend. So Dr. Torrie Thompson, thank you so much for taking the time.

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Thank you for having me and I'm so excited to be back. Yes, absolutely. Now this kind of evolved organically because we were on one of our famed walk and talks and you know, well maybe it wasn't a walk and talk, maybe it was just a hangout, something or other, but over time we've discussed many of the things that we want to make sure that we bring back to this audience of your vast amount of knowledge.

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Maybe it was at the well. Maybe it was at something. But somewhere along the way, we decided we got to bring you back. And part of what came about was this discussion of mold, mold and sleep. So I'm wondering if, you know, maybe we can start at the beginning because my understanding is that you have a bit of your own story around, well, your own health, and mold.

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So maybe we can begin there from that personal narrative. Absolutely. Yeah, I spent the majority of my young childhood into teenage years, super sick and nobody could figure out what was wrong. And so it's through, you know, we went to every specialist, sleep specialist, neurologist, cardiologist, we went everywhere and nobody could figure out what's wrong.

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And, um, And so it came through my own schooling that I started to put the pieces of the puzzle together and realize that mold, Lyme, parasites were really what were causing all my symptoms. And so that kind of,  I became obsessed really with, with learning everything I could about these, you know, organisms and how they can really affect someone's health.

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and detox my own body and then now really specialize in that. And I've become kind of the mold person. I love it. Um, I think mold is fascinating, um, but it can wreck people's health. And the interesting piece is the symptoms aren't like, oh, you know, you have. You know, adrenal fatigue, you're going to be tired.

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With mold, the symptoms are so vast, that that's where a lot of people end up in trouble, is that it's not this cut and dry, you have these three symptoms, it's mold. You have, really, every system in the body is affected, from our brain, our sleep, our guts, our skin, and it finds people's weaknesses, and so you can have two people dealing with the exact same mold, but it manifests.

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It's completely different. And so it's something that is way more common than I think people, um, like to admit it is, I mean, I run lots of labs and it's more common to find mold than not find mold. So it's something that I think is starting to gain a little bit of traction, but there's still a lot of room to really bring the attention to mold in terms of sleep and just overall health.

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Absolutely. So it was interesting because we've had some conversations over the years, and often what you'll point to is we might discuss something around parasites, Candida, SIBO, et cetera, and often what I hear you speak to is some of your estimations or thinking that if some of those things are present, it's likely we might be seeing molds as well.

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Is that too simplistic of a statement? No. So the interesting thing about mold is mold is immunosuppressant. And so when we talk about mold, we're actually talking about a toxin produced by mold. And you'll hear people refer to them as mycotoxins. That's their technical name. So mold itself doesn't really harm us.

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It's the toxin that's released by the mold. And so there's hundreds of mycotoxins. We're now testing for somewhere around 30 of them, but we keep finding more. And each one is going to be slightly different in how it affects the body. But if you kind of zoom out big picture, they act similarly and that they're immunosuppressive.

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They're highly inflammatory and highly toxic. And so if you take Something that's slightly immunosuppressive. What it allows is things that we consider opportunistic infections. So meaning, Candida bacteria that you have normally, if there's something in your system that's immunosuppressive, it will allow those guys to go crazy.

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And so a lot of times people will hammer on, SIBO, or I have, you know, bacterial, you know, some sort of bacterial infection.  But you can try to kill Candida all day long, but it's normal to our flora. And so you have to figure out what is allowing it to overgrow in our system. What is allowing the bacteria to overgrow or what's keeping our system from not fighting parasites or whatever is there.

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And more times than not, it's something like mold. And so you really have to get to, you know, I think root cause may be a little bit overdone, but it's true. You have to figure out, like. What's the deepest layer? And then from there, you have all these upstream symptoms, whether that's candida overgrowth, leaky gut, autoimmune conditions.

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The core of it, a lot of times, is the mold mycotoxin. Okay, and one of the things just for the, as we're panning out here, one of the things that I've always thought was very interesting from your, how you've described molds and this idea of our timeline of how we're thinking about mold. So meaning that if someone's listening, they're saying, well, maybe a bunch of years ago, I was in a moldy place, but now I'm out of that environment.

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So that no longer applies to me. Or we did some remediation. So that's like an old topic. What I've gotten from you and from other experts is that that's not maybe the right way to think about molds and maybe can help us expand on that for someone that might be listening in there. Whatever. They're. 45 years old and potentially had instances of being in a moldy environment years back.

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Like, is there, is there a timeline here? Is there a period where it's just too long, where it's too long to consider? Or could it be like a whole long stretch of time? Like, help us understand that timeline piece. It can be as, you know, you could have gotten exposed as a young child and it'll sit in your body and, and mold and a lot of organisms have this.

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They create this slimy substance called biofilm. And it's the same stuff when you pick up a rock and a stream that like slimy layer on the top. These organisms in our gut or in our body, wherever they live, will surround themself in this biofilm layer. And what it is, is it's a literal barrier between the microorganism and our immune system.

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So if you have a barrier there and your immune system can't really take care of it, mold is also going to be immunosuppressive. So your immune system's already turned down a little bit.  That really sets the stage for that mold just hanging out. And then our body doesn't really know what to do with it, to be honest.

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So the body doesn't detox mold well. We now know there's genes at play that can make you have a harder time. But even if you didn't have those genes, most people don't detox mold well on their own. And so it's a really, um, common you know, belief system that if you move out of the mold or you, you know, stop ingesting the mold from a food source, that it's just going to go away.

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And it's not true. Um, the, the mold testing doesn't tell us when you got it in your system, which can make it a little tricky, but a lot of times people are like, Oh yeah, I lived in a moldy apartment in college. And, um, you know, we'll see it in their systems year late years later. So it's, if you get exposed to mold, if you lived in it.

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It's worth, you know, testing and it's worth seeing if there's some in your body because it is  for a lot of people, it affects them immediately, but there's a huge, you know, category of people that it affects them down the road, whether that's. you know, just gut issues, skin issues, brain fog. And now we're starting to see mycotoxins associated with cancers, with some of these neurodegenerative diseases.

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So the research is really showing these guys are not what you want hanging out in your system. Okay, so if someone's listening and they're starting to kind of pull these puzzle pieces together and thinking, Oh, well, could my poor sleep right now be related to mold? What would some of the common sources of mold be that you see consistently like how can we think about this both in your environment and then food sources and then after curious on the next steps like when you talk about testing what that looks like so beginning with what are some of those things that people may be overlooked like the leaky faucet or whatever and the types of foods that are common yes so mycotoxins come from From toxic mold, right?

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So there's a lot of people know there's mold outside. That's environmental mold. Those guys do not affect us. You might get allergies from them. They are not harmful at all. What we're looking at is toxic mold and there's two sources. You have a water source, so that's going to be a roof leaking, a bathtub overflowing, a You know, leaky faucet, high humidity, um, AC and HVAC units are notorious for this.

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Your car, air conditioner, um, anywhere a dark place where it can get a little bit humid, a little bit warm is the perfect, you know, climate for mold. But if you live in Colorado or you know, one of the drier states, it doesn't mean you can't get mold. Yes. All it takes is just. Yeah, a little bit of, you know, a leak and the, you know, behind a wall where it's really, really sealed and molds can, can really show up fast.

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It only takes 24 to 48 hours from the time of water exposed, you know, being exposed to create mold. And then you also have this other category, which is going to be food molds. And so food molds are, they're no less toxic than, you know, water damage mold. They act very similarly. And they're actually some of the most studied mycotoxins.

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You may hear people refer to aflatoxins. That's mold and that's going to be coffee grains. So, you know, any of your grain products. cereal, bread, um, rice, corn, um, peanuts and peanut products are notorious for mold. And then you have some kind of B level foods, you know, things like cashews, um, spices, dried fruit, but really the big foods are going to be coffee, grains, and peanuts.

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Those are kind of my, you know, be careful with, with those guys. Um, and so there's some that overlap. There are types of mold that can be both water damage and food molds. There are some that are exclusive to others. Um, but you know, most people have been exposed to some sort of mold in their life. Um, and so if you are someone that, you know, you've been exposed, I kind of say you have two, two things you need to do.

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Run a mold test on yourself. See if you have mycotoxins sitting in your system, because If you don't, then you don't even need to worry about this, but mycotoxin test yourself. And then if it comes back with high amounts of mycotoxins, you do want to test your home environment and you can run really inexpensive test plates.

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Um, immunolytics has a plate, I think it's 36 a plate. You set them out and they'll sample. Uh, we also have our friends, you know, at test my home, they have some amazing kits as well. Test your home environment. and see if there's something there because it's, it's very difficult to try to detox your body from mold.

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If you're ingesting it every day, if you're breathing it in every day, it's something that can be near impossible to make headway. Um, and then very easy things you can do if something like remediation is not an immediate, you know, you don't, you can't do it immediately. You're waiting on results. open your windows every day.

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You open your windows, get some fresh air in. Um, I run HEPA purifiers. I know you guys do as well. 24 hours a day. Those things never get turned off. Um, HEPA purifiers and then using, um, there's a company called micro balance and they have amazing mold cleaning solutions. They have candles you can burn.

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They've got a mold, you know, fogger that you can do is all essential oil base. So you're not dealing with any of those toxic, you know, chemicals. Oh, very cool. Real quick. This is a selfish question. I feel like I'm going to have to have you talk to Blake, who you know. So my husband, who is a big coffee fiend, and there's been times where I've tried to bring in like the purity coffees and certain things that are aimed to really be tested and certified that they don't carry some of those concerning components.

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And he has just been not a fan. No. And very coffee snob. And so for you, though, that's one of the top kind of places for us to look. Okay, I'm just, I'm going to tell them. Yeah, I'm a fellow coffee snob. So I get it. I understand its perspective. I'm a coffee snob. But, you know, what I always say is like 80 percent of the time I try to drink malt free coffee where I leave wiggle room as if I'm traveling.

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Um, I also run mycotoxin testing on myself every year. So I know where my values. sit. So if I were someone that was dealing with, say, mold from a, you know, a past exposure and I had high amounts, I wouldn't have really any wiggle room in there because I wouldn't want to add to the load. My toxin load is very low, so I have a little more flexibility.

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But, you know, especially aflatoxins are what we look at in coffee. That tends to be the big one. Um, there's lots of research right now on the effects of aflatoxins in, you know, cancers, liver toxicity. Um, and so for me, I go, well, I don't want to play around with that. So I will, I'll just do my mold free coffee.

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It's not as good, I'll say. And if any of the companies could like step up their game, it would be greatly appreciated.

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I'll take Mediocre coffee over liver toxicity. Yeah, thank you. Exactly. So well said. And sorry, if you can just repeat again the, so because you test, you said every year or so just the name of those companies that you might suggest in the United States or is it more layered? For people testing or home testing?

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For people testing. So for getting that kind of annual test. Yep. So I love the Vibrant America panel. Their vibrant panel has the most mycotoxins in it. They're testing for 29, um, where the other companies you have, um, you know, biotech and mosaic, they're testing for 12 or 13. So vibrant is a little bit more expensive, but, um, does give you a really, uh, comprehensive mycotoxin profile.

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And then it's really simple. It's just a small urine sample that you take, um, you know, first thing in the morning. sent back to the lab, and then within two weeks, you have a full, a full idea of where you are. Um, you know, they, they basically give you a yellow, green, red system of where you fall in their scale.

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Okay. And if people are already listening and be like, I can't imagine my doctor is gonna go for ordering this type of test or what have you, is there, so one, could people go to someone like yourself to have access to this, or there are different ways to kind of, to get a test like this?  Yeah, these tests always have to be ordered through someone.

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Um, so you have, you know, anyone that's, you know, dealing in the mold world will order these. You are starting to get more, you know, traditional doctors running these tests. And so if you can get your doctor to run it, by all means do. Yeah.  Um, yeah, you can reach out to me or, you know, all of, all of us molds, molds, practitioners.

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They'll be running those. Okay, cool. And you, for you personally, you do every year. And is it something you recommend for most of your clients to, to just stay abreast of this since it's so common? It kind of depends on what their history is. So because I have a Lyme history, I am very careful with never letting my, you know, toxin threshold get high at all, because I don't want to see that pop back up.

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But for someone that's just your average person, had some issues with molds, um, but didn't really have maybe, you know, There's no autoimmune conditions. There's nothing that's really a chronic kind of lying in the background piece. I think you can get away with every two to three years, a toxin panel. Um, you'd really don't have to do that often, but if you're someone autoimmune conditions, Lyme disease, anything chronic, uh, I like to stay on top of it at that one year.

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Oh my goodness. As I'm talking to you, I'm already like, I got to have you test my mom too. I think she's been living in some very moldy environments. We finally got her out of this last one, but. Everyone needs access to their own Dr. Torrie Thompson. So  moving on to further, just kind of underscoring how you think about mold and sleep.

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Just curious what some of the symptoms might be that you may see that would have you, I mean, granted, as you shared, you're become really known in this mold space. So you're likely testing in general for this, but are there certain symptoms that you hear about as it relates to sleep that say, Oh, let's test.

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Not necessarily like one specific one. I mean, generally you're going to hear that someone's sleep is altered, whether it's mind racing, waking up around two to three, you know, that liver time, um, or waking up exhausted. A lot of times you're going to see that molds. And mold plays with our neurotransmitters and, um, you know, especially in the dopamine pathway.

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And so, a lot of times, the mold will actually block the dopamine conversion to norepinephrine. And so, what happens is, if you can't make that conversion, your dopamine builds up. And so, a lot of times when people get really high dopamine,  They're wired, right? They're either mind racy. They're amped. They can't fall asleep.

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But on the other end of the spectrum, because their dopamine's not converting to norepinephrine, they're flat, right? They have no motivation. And so it's this really interesting pattern. When I hear that someone's like, my mind's racing, but I have no motivation that usually screams mold to me. Um, and then of course, you know, you're looking at, um, you know, waking up exhausted, whether that's from, you know, your body's.

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It's just kind of overburdened. It's stressing the adrenals. Um, usually if I hear sleep, I usually go, well, we let's look at mold as a possibility because it's such a big one. But of course there's other organisms that can do it as well.  Today I want to talk to you about something that often flies under the radar, but is absolutely crucial for great sleep.

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minerals. Now you've heard me talk about circadian rhythms, light exposure, temperature control and more. But let's dive into the foundational elements that fuel our body's ability to sleep deeply and restoratively, specifically minerals. Our modern lifestyle with its processed foods and environmental stressors can leave us depleted of essential minerals.

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So head on over to B minerals spelled B E A M today and use the code sleep as a skill all one word at checkout to get a special discount on your order. Your body and your sleep will thank you.  And is it on both sides of the spectrum? So we'll get people that both are under sleeping and but then we do have instances of idiopathic hypersomnia.

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So they're over sleeping. Is it something where you see on both sides of the spectrum? Yeah, you do. And usually what I'll hear is no matter what their sleep, you know, amount is, they're never rested. They're never feeling great. They're like, gosh, I could sleep 12, 13 hours and I wake up and I feel like I suffer too.

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So that's something I do hear a lot is no matter what the amount of sleep is, it's that waking up absolutely exhausted, drained. Usually their HRV is tanked. You see someone with. with mold. A lot of times their H. R. V. Is going to be  somewhere. I've seen the lowest I've seen with someone dealing with mold was like five or six.

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Um, and then, you know, usually they're hanging somewhere between 15 and 30 is kind of an average H. R. V. For someone dealing with mold. Wow, interesting. But there's hope here in case people are like, Oh, this is so overwhelming and there's been so many sources for me, or how do I get rid of this? Or I know I'm living in mold.

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There is hope. So what you see is once you get that information, so the kind of the steps are identifying possible sources, then getting tested. And once we get those numbers and values back, then we come up with our protocol is the next approach.  And it's, the thing about mold is it's not necessarily a hard detox.

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It can be. It's, it's lengthy. Okay. And so I think a lot of people are like, oh gosh, it's this daunting thing. And mold because it's so toxic, it just takes us time. Right? Your body is not gonna dump it all in a, you know, few days. And so, uh, it's anyone that has. a few molds, which is kind of your average, average mold cases, multiple mycotoxins.

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You're looking at somewhere between six and 12 months to get it out of their system. So anyone that says they can do an eight week mold detox, it's not possible to be honest. It's unless you maybe are like. One over the limit. Okay. But your average, you know, best case scenario if you're a single mycotoxin, really low levels is maybe three to four months.

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But, um, generally it's a long detox. Um, and it's, it's just kind of slow and steady wins the race, but you can get it out of your system. And then once you get the mycotoxins in the mold outta the system, the body can heal and then you can, you know, get your, you can get to a baseline and then really optimize.

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And it really, it's not something that comes back. later down the road unless you get re exposed. So it's not something you have to worry about reactivation or anything like that. Once it's gone, it's gone. Oh, wow. Okay, great. So there's hope for people. So we want to just get ourselves connected to what are our source.

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points. So you mentioned test my home. If people are interested in learning more about them, we did do a podcast with them. So if you want to check that out, that could be a great episode. They have a website as well. But also getting themselves connected with a practitioner like yourself, who can guide them on this journey can make a big difference.

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And then as far as I'm sure it's varied as As far as the protocols, but I know I've heard you mentioned cell core is a, you know, kind of partner in crime for you in this journey is that a, would you say a popular route for many mold practitioners? I think they have the best, best binders on the market right now.

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So binder is going to be actually what goes in and grabs. the mold and gets it out of your system. And cell core is really advanced the technology because binders you used to take were like zeolite bentonite activated charcoal. You had to be on a very rigid timeline. You couldn't take it with food, medication, supplements had to be a way, you know, you were on this very crazy schedule.

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And now the cell core binders, they don't bind other things. They only bind what you're aiming them at. So you can take it with. with food. You can take it with other supplements. And so it allows them to, uh, you know, clients to have a very easy supplement schedule and they're very well tolerated and they work so well.

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So their binders, I think are kind of bar none bar, you know, they're just. Way above everybody else. Um, and then it really comes to the thing about mold is you can't just take a binder, right? You have to make sure your system is supported liver, kidneys. You need to be going to the bathroom every day. Um, you need to make sure that your body is supported because these guys are so toxic.

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They will tax your system. So you want to make sure you're very well supported. Um, so don't just go take a binder. You do want to work with someone that knows. you know, how to support the system, when to push the gas, when to pull back and guide you through every step of the way. And some of those reactions to people talk about their Herxheimer reactions and certain problems that they might experience.

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And then what we'll hear is sometimes issues with their sleep. Is that something that, that you do see even if they have the best of protocols or there are ways to mitigate that with that kind of thoughtful approach? No, I think you can, you might see a little bit of a reaction, but I always tell people, I don't want to see more than a five to 10%, you know, increase in symptoms for more than two days.

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If you're, if you have that giant reaction that you're in for a week, two weeks, you're going too fast or you haven't supported your system, right? Your liver is working too hard. Your body can't clear these toxins. And so I like to kind of back. pedal first, make sure that someone's system can handle it before we even put any binders in anything that's going to deal with the mold.

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We make sure that your baseline is solid. Your body has what it needs. Then when you go in and start to pull and, you know, grab the mold, it's a much gentler, simpler process. So I'm not really seeing much of the reactions too too much. And if we do, sometimes we just need to scale back, right, go on lower doses, go slower.

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Um, but again, it's, I would say maybe 5 percent of my clients, I see reactions and it's very rare. Okay. And as you pointed to so often your estimation, it is mold kind of at that, not to have that cliche root cause piece, but just that's what's at the base. And so if we're addressing this molds component, is that something where you see just a spillover into some of those other complaints?

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the candida, the parasites, et cetera, or is it just a multi step? Like first we deal with the molds, then we have to tackle those. Or is it just more individualized? It kind of generalize when you're going at the mold, you will add a little bit of killing power, right? You're going to try to kill off the fungi.

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And so when you go at that, you will take out parasites. You will take out bad bacteria. I never worry about Candida to be quite honest. I usually tell people, you know, cut out the sugar while you're detoxing molds, which we need to do anyway. And the Candida will self resolve because it's not going to die.

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You're not going to kill it. It's not a, an organism that isn't, you know, it's not a pathogenic organism. So when you have a parasite. That guy doesn't belong in our system. We want to kill him, get rid of him. But something like Candida, that's part of the normal flora. And so if you can just get rid of what it's following, for most people it's mold, it will self resolve and it's not an issue.

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It's not going to be something that the second they, you know, cheat on their diet, it flares back up, which if that's you. That's the telltale symptom that there is something deeper going on. If you kill, try to kill your candida and then you go a little off your diet and it flares back, there's something deeper.

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Oh, so good. Okay, amazing. Before we transition to how you're managing your own sleep, is there anything else that you want to say or convey on this topic of molds, candida, parasites, and sleep? Oh, gosh. I would just say, you know, it's very overwhelming for a lot of people and it doesn't have to be. It can very much be a bite by bite piece.

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If you are someone like, like me and I, you know, I have all these things in front of me, I get like almost like paralysis. Yeah. And so if you're someone, you know, just take it chunk by chunk. Test yourself, test your home, and then, you know, come up with a really, you know, solid detox plan, and it's very much possible to regain your health, and I will say, just on the other side of watching people's sleep improve, just from detoxing mold has been something that's been amazing, um, especially ever since being friends with you, um, I know we have some Some clients that are mutual clients.

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And it's so amazing to watch this pairing of cleaning out their system and getting rid of mold and then what you do and like their sleep just skyrockets. So it's pretty amazing. And it's very possible to really get to a place of amazing health by detoxing from molds. Oh, I love that. I think that's so important for people to hear in their nervous system.

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Cause like you said, it can feel so overwhelming and paralysis can certainly be the case and not to mention if you are potentially swimming in mold or just not feeling at your best to have the energy to tackle something like this can feel a little daunting, but when we hear that. and know that there's a light at the end of the tunnel and doesn't have to be so arduous.

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I think that's really important. So thank you for that message. And having said that, considering you're someone that has taken, you know, such care and time and attention to your own health, very curious to hear the latest for you and how you're managing your own sleep. So we ask everyone four questions.

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Our first one is what does your nightly sleep routine look like right now? Well, my nightly sleep routine is modeled after you, and so we've got,  we've got red lights, red lights that come on. No, no lights. Um, if, you know, if I'm doing anything, blue light blockers go on. I'm eating dinner early. I don't want to eat anywhere near going to sleep.

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Um, and then something that I've recently added in is, And I used to do this and I kind of got off of it and I've recently added it back in is breath work and meditation before going to sleep. And that's been a game changer to just like really wind down. And then another Molly ism is I go to bed religiously at this time.

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same time every single night. So good. I know the consistency is like the least sexy call out for people and yet so so powerful. So I love that one. And it's so funny that you said the breathwork meditation piece because that has been something that I have been adding back in myself. It's interesting because I've seen for myself, I love doing, I'm a big doing person and the  sitting and being, you know, which is one of the big key components of meditation.

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I think it's even one of the reasons why, you know, you and I both love hypnosis, but even hypnosis can still be in the realm of somewhat of doing. And so I'm really trying to mindfully bring back in a bit more of that being, even though my, it's like my natural innate way.  to, oh, but you can't just sit there like you want to do something.

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And so, but the power of that and the simplicity of that. I love it. So good. And then transitioning to your mornings. What might we see for your mornings with the argument that how we start our day could impact our sleep? You know, it's very boring, but I wake up, um, immediately go outside with the dogs and, you know, try to get my feet in, in the grass, sit outside with the dogs and then, um, you know, breath work and meditation to start off the day, you know, getting sun in my eyes and then, um, you know, starting with, with breath work and meditation.

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And I will say as a doer, my little hack, I do Wim Hof breath work. And so my little hack is I have a. stopwatch. So I like to time how long I can go with my breath. And so for me, that's what I'm able to like, I do my little stopwatch and I can like make it a little competition. I know it's probably very counterproductive, but it allows me to really make it a game of like, oh, I can hold my breath three minutes and then three 10.

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And that's been a game changer for like, how do I make this fun? I'm going to make it a little game. Oh, I love that. Totally. I know. I do something like that too with, I'll use insight timer and so I like how it kind of kind of have that streak effect and getting in there and just the gamification and to your point, I do know more kind of traditionalists and they're like, you don't need all those things just to, you know, Watch and just be and be present, but I'm with you to have a little bit of that game is fantastic.

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Okay, and I love that you're getting your son and grounding and we do see it's so funny owners of puppies, dogs, etc. Do seem to have such a great setup because they're often quickly getting outside, which is our whole game. So love hearing that. So our third question would be what might we see on your nightstand or maybe in your environment, any call outs there when you're traveling, things that you like to bring for sleep?

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I've got my air purifier next is in my, in my room. Yes. Um, that guy, even if I'm going, if I'm going to an Airbnb and I'm going to be there for a while, actually travel with my little HEPA filter, you know, And then I've got a lamp. We don't use any overhead lights. Um, and so my lamp with my red light, if I'm traveling, my blue light blockers go with me.

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Um, and I'm pretty simplistic in that. I, you know, there's the only other thing is we have fresh, fresh plants, you know, in my room to kind of clean the air, but I like simple. I don't like very, um. Fluttered or or over complicated, you know, tech. I love that. Do you know Mike from Jasper the air purifier company?

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He's here in Austin. Yeah. Okay. I feel like you would really appreciate it So he kind of said these things. He's just does not care zero You know, so zero bugs given so he is such a character. And so one of the things that He had called out was that when he's traveling, he will sometimes, and now this could be, you know, controversial, but if he's at an Airbnb and he walks in and particularly gets a sense that there's mold or something at play, he'll go to like a Walmart or Costco or whatever and get an air purifier, big old air purifier, get it for like the weekend and turn it just, I'm just sharing, just sharing different things that people do, you know, that's go to great lengths to get clean air.

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So. options. Oh, yeah. The last thing you want is your vacation to wreck your health. So, you know, if you've got to go buy an air purifier and return it by all means. Yes, exactly. Oh my God. I'm going to get such suddenly sleep is a skill podcast becomes very controversial. So having said that, the last question we ask everyone is to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game?

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Or maybe you said another way, biggest aha moment in managing your own sleep? Oh, it's tricky. I would say something that really made a big difference was moving my dinner time and my supplements, my PM supplements up. Yes. That was something that was such a simple change. Yeah. And I'm, I'm an old lady at heart.

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The earlier I can eat dinner, the happier I am. Yes. So I,  you know, moved my supplements up, moved my dinner time up. And I really think I watched, you know, really everything improve. And so I got into deep sleep faster. I was recovering better. And so I think that is one of the simplest things I've done, especially with supplements.

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It's really easy to forget. And then at like. You know, right before you go into bed, you're like, Oh gosh, I haven't taken anything. But what we forget is these supplements, one, you have to digest them. And two, what do they do in your system? Right. Are you taking B vitamins that are energizing or vitamin D that is going to come from the sun?

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So what, you know, moving it up was a game changer and I think it's simple, but made a huge impact. Oh, I love that too. Yeah, we have a module in our program's chronopharmacology, so the timing of our drugs. And of course, drugs is a big topic, so it could be as simple as our coffee, hopefully mold free. But looking at alcohol, THC, see plant medicine.

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I mean, maybe that could be another part three or something to discuss at some point. Just anecdotally, we see some really interesting things with plant medicines on our wearable stats and HRV, etc. But the timing of those type of drugs, but also our supplements and our prescription medications, etc. And making sure that the times that we're choosing to take these really are serving our circadian health, etc.

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So love that you're mindful of that. And certainly the meal timing, it is just such an underrated component. I now think of meal timing because I've largely cut out alcohol. For me, eating later has become a similar type of hit that I used to experience with alcohol the next day, like a hangover type feeling.

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Now that's my closest thing to that feeling is when I eat late the next day, my HRV is tanked, my heart rate went up, just the quality of that. sleep was in question. I'm dragging. So I love that you've made that kind of shift. Okay, amazing. And then before so I'll say we'll give people information of how they can follow you and be a part of your world, work with you, etc.

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And then I'm just going to for, you know, let people know that we're doing something a little interesting on this podcast. We're going to give a few minutes to a participant in our program to ask. personalized questions of Dr. Torrie Thompson and something that they're dealing with. Of course, we've got our Optimize Your Sleep cohort.

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And so this is just a way for us to be able to get some personalized information for, you know, our cohort members, but also so that people listening can hear some of the feedback and see how that could further apply in their own health. So how can people follow you? What are the best ways and then potentially work with you?

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And what might that look like? Yes. So, um, you can follow me, Dr. Torrie Thompson on Instagram and all social. Um, and then I have a very wide range of ways I work with people. We're just about ready to roll out the updated version of my mold. Course, so it's basically going to be all my protocols and how to walk yourself through, um, you know, dealing with mold from your home to food to protocols.

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And then, um, I have kind of, you know, mixes of, you know, DIY  with, um, you know, some visits in there. Um, and then I work with clients one on one. So if you have any questions, you can just reach out to me directly and I can help point you in a direction. Oh, fantastic. Okay. Well, thank you so much for that. And then I'm just going to bring our cohort participant on here.

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Hi. Okay. All right. So yes, this is an opportunity for you to just check in and share a little bit about your own personal experience. So certainly you're looking to optimize your sleep, all pertinent on the Sleep is a Skill podcast. And what are some of the things that are coming up for you that are question marks?

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Because I know you've been interacting with. different practitioners and feel a little in that state that so many are like overwhelmed and hearing different conflicting advice, you know, paths for you. So what comes up for you after hearing this podcast as it relates to your sleep? Yeah. Thank you for having me.

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Uh, so I came in today and I was, I, with the idea that, um, So I myself have been flagged for having a Candida overgrowth for some time that I have not been able to conquer. Very frustratingly, it's been over a year. Um, and I came on, well, one, thinking that Candida was a type of mold, but maybe it isn't. Um, and two, I was going to ask you about strategies to overcoming it, because I feel like I hear a lot of conflicting information from practitioners from, like, online.

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But, um, I really. Identify, I guess, with that bit you said about how,  like, my problem is literally my, you know, latest practitioner says to me, we've done everything we're supposed to. You shouldn't have  these issues anymore.  I don't know what's wrong. Um, and when I try to, like, I'm basically only on this like animal protein and like certain vegetable diets.

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Um, I feel a lot better on it over the past year, but I like really I'm trying to get off of it because it's so untenable long term. Right. And as soon as I eat something off this diet, like all of these symptoms come back. Um, it's and I and I feel like I've run. I'm a bit. I'm still  I understand you mentioned writing this running this mitotoxin test, but I'm kind of confused about what to do next because I feel like I've checked for parasites.

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I've checked for like heavy metals. I've checked for like I've run a GI map and I don't really  like nothing's really coming up other than the Candida and I'm confused  is that yeah. So do you have any questions great great great questions and so Candida and mold are both a type of fungi. So they're both fungal.

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But mold is its own entity and Candida is its own entity. And so mold, because they're both fungi, they're very, very similar to each other and Candida will piggyback on the mold. And so, that's really that, you know, because they're so similar. The mold is usually what's there, what's causing that, you know, the issue and the candida is like, cool, your immune system is not going to come and take me down.

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So I'm just going to go crazy. And so with that, exactly what you explained, right? I've tested for everything else. There's nothing really else popping up. But the second I go off my diet, that to me, if I, if. you know, when I hear that, I go absolutely run a mycotoxin test. The mycotoxin test is completely separate than what you've done, right?

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So you, it sounds like you've looked at all the other organisms in the gut. And what's great is we can write those guys off. So we don't have to worry about those guys, but running a mycotoxin test is only going to look four types of mold in your system. And so that is something that, you know, Is probably the avenue I would explore is what types of mold are there because generally you're going to find, especially with what you're describing, probably 123 different types of mold that you've picked up at some point in your life  and how is killing molds different than killing, uh,  managing Candida,  like the protocol wise.

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Yeah, so the biggest thing is getting through that biofilm, which you really have to do with any organism, but it's killing the fungi and then pulling it out of the system. So you're using a little bit of killing power, right? So herbals, but the biggest piece is the binder. And so say something like candida, you can't just put a binder in for candida.

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It's not, you're not. it's not going to pull it, right? You can't put a binder in for a parasite. You have to go in and kill those guys. So with mold, it's really going, okay, let's kill the fungi, but then let's pull that, that mycotoxin all has to be pulled out of the system. And so you can kind of think of it like you're killing a parasite, right?

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You got to kill it and get it out. But the, the piece of it is, is the effects of mold don't go away until they're gone. So that immunosuppression, that inflammation, that, you know, liver toxicity, those guys stay there. You see, you deal with those effects until it's all out of the system. So until it's gone, you're going to see something like SIBO, Candida, CFO, which is.

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Uh, you know, fungal overgrowth, all of those guys can hang out until the mold is really gone.  Okay. Could you, I don't know how much time I have on here and I don't want to, I imagine your time is very valuable and I don't wanna take too much of it, so just, you know, cut me off. But, um, when that needs to be done, but how important are things like, um, this, this like lymphatic management, like going to Asana or dry brushing again, I feel like I hear so much conflicting advice and I continue to be confused.

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I always tell people like you have to kind of lay out like you have all these tools we have in our tool belt, right? So you can add in saunas, dry brushing, lymphatic massage. Those guys aren't 100 percent necessary. The biggest piece of getting rid of this is what can we do food wise and supplement wise to get it out of your system.

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And then of course there's the like trauma emotional component as well, but food and supplement wise, that's the big guys that I say, those guys, we can't budge on. We need you eating clean. We got to use the supplements. to get it out. Then whatever tools we want to add in, we can, um, saunas, dry brushing, red light, whatever it is, but they're not a hundred percent necessary.

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They can aid in speeding up the process, but on the other side of the coin, something like a sauna can also, you can overdo it and get into a Herxheimer reaction. So food and supplements are kind of your bread and butter. The other things are just tools on our tool belt that we can add in and help, but they're not 100 percent necessary.

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Okay, maybe one more question. Oh, yeah. No, I was actually really glad you asked that about the sauna piece because that was one thing I was going to touch on. And because we do have a lot of clients that sometimes will, they'll see some benefits to their sleep with sauna. So then they start getting into this kind of.

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almost like addictive like relationship to it and becomes a regular thing that they're doing consistently. Is there a bit of a just generalized cap on the sauna question that you like to have like no more than a certain amount per week or anything there? I mean, if someone is not, if you can handle it, no, I mean, really the research is, you know, four to seven times per week, three, you know, 30 minute sessions, that's.

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That's where the research is showing all the benefits lie. Yeah. You just have to be really careful when you have toxins in your system. It doesn't matter if it's metals, environmental toxins or molds, or even certain infections, because you can, you can detox faster than your body can clear. So I always tell people, if you're starting out and you're not a big sauna person, and you're going through a detox.

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Start with little bitty sessions, once a week, sweat plus five minutes or, you know, 10 minutes total and then work your way up and make sure that it's not too much on your system. Because when you do overdo it, it does send you back a little bit. So just ease in. If you're an avid sauna user, you're using it with no problem.

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There's no, no, you don't need to scale back. If you can tolerate it, keep it going. I'm a, I'm a huge fan of the sauna. Okay. Amazing. And yes, ask your next question. Totally. This is more of a Candida question from my knowledge of managing Candida. But I've heard some people say that you need to switch your herbs every few weeks and others don't do that.

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Why are, is the community,  or I guess, why are there different treatment options? Which one are you, do you, what is your philosophy on this?  So the tricky part of this is it's essentially it's kind of like an art form, right? So you ask 10 practitioners their protocols, you're going to get 10 different answers, not to say my protocols are better than the other nine.

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They might get the as good of results or better results, but you're going to get a little bit of variation. And, um, and then there's a little bit of bio individuality between clients, right? So I might use two different protocols for two different people. Um, The reason people alter herbs is because, especially in long term situations, you're, the microbes get used to it.

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So if you change herbs up, you're going to keep them on their toes, right? So they're not going to be like, Oh, cool. It's the same herb you've put in for the last six months. I know how to deal with this. So I do change, um, every few months, if I'm, you know, maybe two months at a time, I'll change herbals. Um, a lot of time you also can get different organisms with different herbs.

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So, you know, you can kind of get a really complete picture. Um, but I don't think you have to do it every few weeks. Um, it's, it's something that you can go, you know, a few months at a time and be alright. It's just when people get in very long protocols. If you've been on the same herbs for six months or to a year, it's probably too long and you should change it up.

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Um, also you do need to give yourself a little bit of a break. I see clients that'll come to me and they're like, I've been killing Candida for two years straight. You have to remember, these are herbs, so they are killing. You know, you're killing bad guys, but there is a little bit of gut, you know, does it is hard on the gut.

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So you do want to make sure that you're not going on these crazy long protocols that are kind of, um, not getting you the results that you're wanting. If you're not getting results, you're wanting to change it up. Um, and then I do probably every, I'd say two to three months, I change herbs. Okay.  Maybe one more question could be great.

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Okay. So, um, does, is there like a relationship between.  Um, okay. So I understand that Candida can get in your blood and like  affect things that way. Is there a similar  way that mold plays out in the bloodstream if it's in like high enough contents in the body?  So it's not, I mean, so anything, once something's in your body, right, it can move.

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it could move. And so mold, mold can go anywhere. So mold loves a dark, a dark space. So we see it a lot in sinuses. If you're someone that lived in mold and you breathed it in, that was your route of exposure. A lot of times we see sinus issues, chronic, you know, sinus headaches, sinus congestion. So you do want to deal with that.

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And then once it's in the system, it can go a lot of different places. And then. What's interesting is, when you hit a high level of toxicity, so your body's got way too much of a mycotoxin in it, what it will do instead of being able to be detoxed is your body will start to store it. And so your body will start taking toxins of any nature.

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and putting it in tissue and fat cells and storing it as like a, Hey, when my toxin load is lower, I'll come back to you. But the problem is, is most people just keep adding to the toxin load. So you can get this accumulation of, of mold really anywhere in the body. And it's really like that with any toxin, um, they can move freely.

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I mean, they, you know, the body. you've got your lymphatic system that can move it. Um, you don't really worry too, too much about, you know, it moving through the blood. It's more so, you know, where is it sitting in the body.  That's very helpful because I happen to have had lifelong chronic sinus issues, um, that have never been.

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You know, tied to anything. Thank you so much. That's that's very useful to me. Well, I'm so happy. Thank you for asking those questions. Those are fantastic. Really helpful to kind of get into the weeds a bit more on how do we navigate this on the ground and it can be so confusing and which path to take given that there's so many different protocols as you spoke to and there might be for good reason because of that bio individuality, but you help illustrate and kind of show us.

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that we can demystify this, so I really thank you for your time and your attention on this topic. I know you're a two time guest, so thanks so much for coming on again, and who knows, maybe part three down the road for, you know, more deep dives, because you have so much knowledge. Well, thank you so much.

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It's always, always a good time if I get to talk about mold and I get to see you. It's a great day. So thank you for having me. Oh, amazing. So incredible. So grateful. And more to come. Thank you so much.  You've been listening to the sleep as a skill podcast, the top podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level.

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Every Monday I send out the sleep obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting. And it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleepisaskill.com forward slash newsletter to sign up.