196: Dr. Valerie Cacho – Integrative Sleep MD & Women’s Sleep Expert | Sleep Apnea in Women: The Overlooked Epidemic You Need to Know About

Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of sleep as a skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change as an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world. sleep.

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Each week I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned life Style is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

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Welcome back to the sleep as a skill podcast. If you or a woman, you know, has been struggling with sleep. This episode is a must listen. So many women find themselves tossing and turning, waking up exhausted or wondering why sleep just isn't what it used to be between hormonal changes, stress, and life transitions.

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It can feel like an uphill battle today. We're having a real heartfelt conversation about women's sleep health with Dr. Valerie Kacho. sleep specialist who's dedicated her career to helping women rest better. She's the founder of sleep life med and  sleepphoria, where she helps women navigate everything from hormonal sleep disruptions to undiagnosed sleep apnea, which by the way, is way more common in women than most people realize in this episode, we'll talk about the number one sleep issue.

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Women don't even know they have and why it's. so often missed how hormones stress and big life changes can throw sleep off balance, practical ways to finally get deeper, more restorative sleep without the gimmicks. And if you've ever felt like you should be able to sleep better, but nothing seems to work, you're not alone.

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This one's for you. And if you know a woman who could use this conversation, send this her way. Let's make sure more women get the sleep that they deserve. So let's jump into the podcast, but first a few words from our sponsors. And as always, our sponsors really keep this podcast alive and we only partner with companies with brands that we truly believe in and use.

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And welcome to the sleep is a skill podcast. This is an episode that has been a long time in the making. I'm such a fan of our guest today. And it's such a kind of small group of individuals. I feel that are putting out content around sleep in the social media space. I should say just of the many accolades of our guests.

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And she happens to be one of them. And one of the things that she's really committed to is helping to support women in midlife to be able to sleep well and thrive among, you know, working with many individuals. But that is a focus point for this conversation. So thank you so much for being here.

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Thanks Mollie.

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I'm so happy to be here and talk to your audience about sleep. My favorite topic.

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Yay! I'm getting a topic. Look at us. This is two beads in a bod. Amazing. I know, and we got, I was just sharing, uh, we were just chatting before we hit record about how we got to interact at the Sleep 2024 event, you know, and just be able to hang out in real life and nerd out.

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And it was just fantastic. So excited for more. But I think that could be a great place for us to kind of begin is how have you found yourself as such an expert in this arena? And then particularly with this interest for women in midlife, share a little bit about that.

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Great question. So it probably starts back in childhood where a lot of things begin and your brain starts to get formulated.

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So my dad is an interventional cardiologist, meaning he did not sleep very much and I didn't see him very much growing up because. He'd rush off to the hospital in the middle of the night and started to catheterization, save someone's life and then had fun of all day. And early on, I knew, yep, that is not the life I want to have.

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I knew I wanted to sleep. I knew I wanted to have a family and just learning more about sleep, um, and really more of the preventive side. So I trained in internal medicine, which doctors for adults went into an extra fellowship in sleep medicine. And then it really sort of, uh, was an outpocket of when I was a, uh,  medical director at a pretty busy sleep lab in Hawaii.

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There was a lot of women coming through who, you know, the doctor sent them really to rule out sleep apnea, because that's really what I did as a medical director, run a lot of studies.  Not a lot of them had it, or maybe they did. And. still didn't solve all their issues. And so I knew there was something more to this.

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And now that I'm in my own private practice, I really developed this sort of framework that can help address a lot of these issues. And it's really just a mind, body, and soul taking a look at the woman as a whole person. So beyond their breathing, what's going on in their life that can really impact their ability to fall asleep or stay asleep.

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Ah, well, I feel like that is just a sigh of relief for so many listeners because so commonly that is something that we'll hear where maybe they have tested to see if they have any sleep disorders and if, you know, came back without sleep disorders or they're treating their sleep disorders and they're seeing still struggling with their sleep and sometimes haven't been met with some of the solutions or pathways or aren't clear on what's next.

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So very excited to dive into that kind of framework that you have created. Maybe you take us through what that might look like for someone that, you know, is listening and like, Oh, that's me help.  

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Yeah, so I think it really takes time to do introspective work with yourself and figure out what's going on because sometimes it really isn't so obvious.

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And, you know, honestly, if you do talk to your doctor, your nurse practitioner or your PA, you know, you don't really have a lot of time to spend with them. So I'm so grateful that there's. You know, places like this and platforms where we spend a lot of time talking about sleep and all the different aspects to it.

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So when I see someone in my private practice, there's a pretty extensive questionnaire. We talk a lot about the physical symptoms of potentially obstructive sleep apnea, restless leg. You know, I am a medical sleep doctor, so I'm going to rule out any underlying medical sleep condition. And the biggest question I always have for someone who has a hard time staying asleep, and I heard you talk about this as well, Mollie, is this could be untreated sleep apnea.

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Yeah.  And some of the research, you know, older research shows up to 90 percent of women are walking around, don't have a clue that they had it. I read two sleep studies today, sort of vague symptoms, maybe headaches in the morning, fatigue, insomnia, um, but. They had sleep apnea, and it's just, I think, a little bit of a surprise, I think, to hear that, but it's so common because the classic story for someone who has sleep apnea is, you know, a trucker, right?

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You know, someone who has a large neck size, maybe a football player, a lineman, and women don't think that they even snore. So that's something to keep in mind. You know, is there a physical breathing issue that can keep you from sleeping well, but then beyond that. So thinking about the mind, body, and soul, what's keeping you from falling asleep?

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Do you have anxiety? Do you have ruminating thoughts? Are you going through hormonal changes that actually can cause? your depression or just, you know, that time just is a little bit off. You don't feel quite like your normal self and you're not able to put your finger on it. So the body, right? Sleep apnea and beyond that, you know, blood sugar issues.

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I know it's really popular to talk about pain, medication, side effects, waking up to urinary, a whole host of things, and then diving deeper, sort of. peeling back the onion layers, things I really like to talk about are what's going on with your soul, you know, what are your relationships looking like, you know, maybe you're in a relationship where things just aren't the way that you expected them to be.

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Maybe you're a partner, you're just sort of two moving ships in the same space. Or maybe you're looking for a different type of job or you've peaked at your job. You're looking to retire or have the side hustle that you've always dreamed of, that passion project. And so it's beautifully complex and just, that's the way women are.

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And I'm sure you've heard this before. It's like before 1994, women weren't even required to be part of the medical literature.

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So we just have a huge lack of information on what to do with these people. And sometimes, you know, it can be quite challenging, but. You know, it's a beautiful thing to be able to help someone get better sleep and feel better.

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Yeah, I'm glad to be in this space.

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Oh, that's fantastic. And so needed. And so considering what you also just shared of kind of the gap for women in research, as it relates, especially to sleep and hormonal shifts, how are you helping them to guide through this journey of changing hormonal shifts? If they're like, help me, I have no clue what's going on with my body, but we have a idea that this hormonal shift could be at play.

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How do you address that?

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Yeah, great question. Education. So I love teaching. I love reading and writing and teaching. And so just talking about, you know, how estrogen and how progesterone play a role with your sleep. And so what we do know is that, you know, as you go through perimenopause, you're still having your periods, but the levels are fluctuating.

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So you may start to have hot flashes. You may not even have hot flashes, but your body temperature may just be rising. And that in and of itself can wake you up, right? As we know our body temperature. falls down, and that contributes to really good sleep. Um, you may just have more disrupted sleep because also now you're a light sleeper.

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Maybe you're worried about something and you're not too sure what that is, and your sleep is more fragmented. And we also see that along with aging. So you know, irrespective if you're, um, you know, going through perimenopause, there's age related changes to our sleep architecture where we have less deep sleep and less REM sleep.

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And that can contribute to it as well. So I think just understanding what can be happening for you and then building upon that, you know, these things may explain why your sleep is disrupted. But I think at the end of the day, what I always like to offer is hope, right? So these things may be happening to you, but that doesn't mean that we can't do anything about it.

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You know, let's figure out what's going on for you personally. And that's what I love about the practice that I have been able to create. It's really personalized medicine for some people like women are already on medications to help improve their sleep. And it's not really working well. Maybe they've already tried hormone replacement therapy, um, and it's not really working.

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They still can't sleep. So just really partnering with them where they're at and what they're interested in doing. You know, some people come in and they're I think they have a good idea. They probably have sleep apnea because their bed partner says that they're snoring. And yes, you know, when they're going on vacation, their daughter's like, no, mom, you got to get another bed.

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You know, I got another whole room because I don't want to, I don't want to stay in the same room with you, but they're worried of what that may mean. You know, does that mean I have to sleep something with on my face and like, no, there's so many different options, but that's really the narrative. Right.

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And so it's really just. encouraging people, educating them, and how it's not a one size fits all. If you have this, then that, and that's really what medicine is. But, you know, I think the medicine that I practice is the integrative medicine. We bring in a lot of resources of things that actually work for people and figure out how we can partner together to really improve your sleep, health, and along this whole wonderful journey of life.

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I love that. So rare to be able to have the time and have a practitioner that's going to go in deeper, look at what's happening with your soul. I mean, you know, I don't remember the last time I've heard a doctor kind of check in on that topic. And so, and you did mention too, part of your kind of protocol, it sounds like some lengthy intake so that you're really getting a thorough look at each individual.

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So if someone is listening and now they're, saying, well, I don't know. Is it the hormones? Is it certain medications? How do you kind of break this down for people that are just really struggling and even considering, like, should I start working with someone? Like, is this just a phase? Like what are the guide posts?

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Um, yeah,that's a great question, Mollie. And I always step back and say, what is bothering you? Like, what are you most worried about? You know, my intake is like, what are the three top things you want to talk about with your sleep? And the next question or what are your health goals? Because for some people, it really is a snoring.

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But for us, other people like, well, I don't know if I snore. You know, it's maybe my husband's thing or my partner's thing or my kid's thing. But what I'm worried about are these headaches. You know, I just get them in the middle of the night or I'm just so exhausted and it's like, you know, 10 o'clock and I don't know what to do and I'm worried that my boss is going to get, you know, mad at me because my productivity is going down.

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So really honing in on what's bothering you and then reverse engineering that, right? Because it could be hormones. But it could just be, you know, ruminating thoughts or circadian issues. I have a lot of folks who just want to sleep at nine, but their clock is like a one o'clock, two o'clock person. But it's like, that doesn't work with their social calendar.

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So yeah, I think it's really just sort of doing that personalized approach. What is going on in your life and how can we improve it?

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Okay, great. And does this involve much testing from by way of when we're speaking about hormones, for example, or other health related things? Or is that a suggestion point for you?

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Or how do you feel about that?

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Yeah, no, that's a great question. So just to clarify, in terms of testing and talks. talking about like blood tests for hormonal levels. Yes. Yeah. Aside from sleep tests. Yeah, exactly. So sleep tests, everyone gets, you know, I think everyone should be tested for sleep apnea. Me too.

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It's so easy. You can do it in the comfort of your own home. Yep. Nope. That's it. Couldn't agree more. For blood tests for women. So I think it could be helpful, but stepping back at the individual person, you know, sort of like the way I feel about sleep trackers, they can be really helpful. But I think for the individual person, you know, what will this data do to change X, Y, or Z, right?

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If you have a lot of anxiety in around sleep, if you identify as someone who's a poor sleeper, because, you know, maybe, you know, your mom's like that, your aunt, your grandma, you just think it runs in the family. Well, testing sort of changed the needle for, you know, that identity. Maybe, maybe not for someone who maybe has like an IUD and they're not sure if these symptoms are thyroid issue or vitamin deficiency.

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I think it could be helpful. Yeah. So again, it's really personalized. Um, not like sleep testing. I don't blanket at all. I don't do it. You know, I actually just refer out to a menopause practitioner or OBGYN, um, practitioner, but it can be helpful in the right person.

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Yeah, absolutely. Okay, great.  If you've tuned into the show or followed any of our content here at Sleep is a Skill, you may have heard that everyone that we work with wears the Oura Ring.

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And as a result, we have amassed a very large database of Oura Ring users and get to see what really moves the needle for people when it comes to their sleep measurably. Now, because we have so much data around sleep optimization, many ask, what they can do to improve their sleep quality. And for years, my answer has been that one of the few things I've seen make such an overnight difference is the use of a quality cooling mattress topper.

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But it also has additional features that truly set it apart. So with eight sleep, you can enjoy advanced sleep tracking, allowing you to monitor key metrics like heart rate, heart rate, variability, and sleep stages, all integrated seamlessly into the app. It also has a dual zone temperature control, which means that you and your partner can each set your own ideal sleep temperature.

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Plus the gentle rise wake up technology uses temperature and vibration to wake you up gently and naturally avoiding the jarring sound of an alarm, but it doesn't stop there. There's more, more, more. So the system even includes a smart alarm feature that wakes you up during your lightest. sleep phase. I know a lot of people have asked me about this and this is included in here within a customizable time window, ensuring you wake up feeling refreshed and ready to start your day.

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And for those of you who struggle with snoring, eight sleep has an anti snore feature that adjusts your sleep environment in real time to help reduce snoring and improve overall sleep quality. So this is truly a game changer for anyone serious about optimizing their sleep. So if you're ready to take your sleep to the next level, head on over to eight sleep and use the code sleep as a skill, all one word at checkout for a discount.

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And then beyond that, I know you also have some even out of the box, maybe approaches things like hypnosis and beyond. Are there any things to touch on that maybe the generalized practitioner around sleep might not consider to bring in?

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Yeah, no, that's so helpful. And if you think about maybe our sleep program, and just the way our brain works from a neuroscience standpoint, the thoughts that you have, right, this is really fundamental cognitive behavioral therapy, the thoughts that you have affect the way that you feel, which affects the way that you behave.

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And for some people, there could be things below the surface, if you think about more of a subconscious or unconscious level. And I think that's the beauty of clinical hypnotherapy is we may have some stress going on in our lives and we may not be able to pinpoint it. But the way I like to think of clinical hypnotherapy is basically, it's, it's a lot of positive psychology where you're telling your unconscious mind that You can almost do anything really.

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You know, you're a great sleeper. Once you put your head on the pillow, you can fall asleep and stay asleep. And the way I like to do it, when I work with my patients who have insomnia or maybe they're claustrophobic and they have a hard time using their mask is we paint their perfect day. You know, there's no time limitations.

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There's no money limitations. You can travel in a private jet to an Island in Tahiti if you want, or you can go back in time. And it's really interesting to see where people go. Sometimes they spend time with their family. Um, I was working with one person in particular and. Um, this person was in the IT world.

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And so, you know, his perfect day actually was being in a like forest, a really remote place where there was no internet,  no power, and he was just hanging out with his family and it was phenomenal just to bear witness to that. And then afterwards he was like, wow, I can feel like I can take a nap. And I just had some coffee before I came in for this visit.

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So it's really powerful how you can really encourage the unconscious mind. Rewrite, rewrite the story from, from a clinical hypnotherapy standpoint. And then we record it and we just encourage people to listen to it. And it's been really fascinating to see how people can really improve their sleep quality by changing,  using the power of your imagination, really what it is, right?

Yeah. And it makes a lot of sense too, for seeing such efficacy with things like CBT. I that there's. this connection that cannot be severed, you know, it could be so convenient and so many people that will come our way. It's like, well, just give me the gadget. Give me the supplement. And as we know, rarely is that the path that really makes the difference.

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And so having said that, that's fantastic. So that might come into play if it's pertinent for the individual that you're working with. And then are there other kind of generalized rules of thumb that you have people bring in? Is it practicing with kind of age old sleep hygiene approaches or any other? components that you like to make sure people are aware of?

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I am a big fan of nutrition and I think it's something I've certainly heard you talk about a lot, but I feel like not a lot of attention is paid into the food that we eat and how it nourishes our sleep. You know, there's a lot of fitness and how the way our body looks, but I think in terms of our sleep quality, and I know for myself, right?

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I'm very sensitive to caffeine now. It's really sad because I used to love a great vanilla latte, but I can really only stick with teas, which is okay. Um, there's some great teas out there, but even like the timing of when we eat and also, you know, if I have a an ice cream a little bit later in the evening.

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I can feel like it makes my heart palpitate a little bit more and I feel a little bit anxious and I'm like, you know, what's going on in my life? And I was like, no, I think it was just that huge sugar load. My body's like, wait, what are you doing? You know, like you're just hanging out watching TV. Like, why are you having all this sugar?

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Are we going to go? for a run or something. So it's really interesting and I think just being mindful to that and how, you know, having high fiber foods, right, can really help and maybe, you know, more protein later in the day. And if you want to have carbs, you know, certainly can, but you know, would it make more sense to do that early in the day when your body is moving more so your muscles can actually use it?

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So really being mindful of the things that you're putting into your mouth, the timing of it and how it can affect the quality of the sleep that you have.

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Oh, 100%. Couldn't agree more. It's funny, right before this call, I was just had a conversation with a client that was just reflecting on the measurable changes that were happening with her or ring when she had been eating later and was on vacation and this that and the other and seeing how her heart rate would reliably go up, her HRV would reliably go down, respiratory rate go up, you know, just all these kind of indicators that the body was just struggling a bit more to recover and it makes sense if you're having to digest throughout, you know, your, your sleep time and the type of food.

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And then we also see how those things get connected. For the individuals that are dealing with something like sleep apnea and how we do have some research to point to have even the quality of the food, the timing of the food to increase the severity of that apnea or decrease it. If we play around with improving the choices and the timing.

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So I think that's such a great point. So really bringing in this holistic. approach. And that can sound like, you know, when people, sometimes I feel like here holistic approach, it's like, Oh, it really is. It's going to get at the real problem. Like I want to get to the root cause. And it's like, that is the root cause.

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So commonly it is this whole picture that cannot be just, you know, kind of sliced off. It's the whole story. So exactly.

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Yeah. And it's simple, right? You know, we talk about light, we talk about breathing, we talk about moving our bodies, eating and sleep. What more do we really need in our life?

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Exactly. Oh my God.

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That's such a good point. Well, before we transition to asking questions about how you're managing your own sleep and what we can learn from you, any kind of parting thoughts on this topic of women and midlife and sleep or beyond?

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Yeah, great question, Mollie. And I think what it comes down to is you feel like you're alone, um, in the sense that what you're going through, you may be in isolation, but some of the research shows up to 40 to 60 percent of women in and around midlife do struggle with sleep.

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And not to, you know, normalize it, it's really common, but it doesn't mean that there isn't something that we can do about it, right? Because maybe you talk to your friends and, and they feel tired and they're going through the same things. And yes, a lot of people are suffering, but there doesn't have to be that.

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It doesn't have to be that way. And there's folks like Molly, you know, there's great communities where you can join and partner with like minded individuals to find the support you need.

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Oh, well, right back at you. So grateful for the work you're doing. So important and very excited to learn from you around how you're managing your own sleep.

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So we do ask for questions of every guest. And the first one is always what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now with the call out that you know, you're in sleep all the time, I'm sure things evolve and shift and all kinds of stuff. But what might we see right now? Great question. So I have two young kids, four and seven.

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And so I bedtime nighttime routine is sort of.  on them.  So yeah, I mean, bath books and go to sleep like listening to stories they bicker about what sto Um, it's actually really  them to sleep in the same bed. So now, you know, they don't come and interrupt me in the middle of the night. So we listen to the story.

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And I've really been mindful within the past, honestly, two weeks now about using my screen timer. And so I'm shutting down because I have noticed really the social media. And for me, it's like, it's really important, I think, to be on and to see what. is happening. Yeah, sure. So addicting for me. And I really have a hard time having healthy boundaries for that.

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So now I'm just like, I've just got to shut off around nine, nine 30. Yep. Um, and then I have a Kindle. And so I just read a books and, um, you know, if they're business books, sometimes I get a little bit too stimulated. So sometimes I just sort of read like. You know, boring, but I think it's interesting, like topics about health,  um, or even just like some novels.

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And I think that's really helpful. So putting my kids down and then one, one to two times a week, I do do some extra work and I stay up later, but I know that when I do stay up later, it takes me even longer to wind down, which it's just like, why do I do this to myself?  So knowing all that I know, I think one, one, one lesson is even no one's a perfect sleeper.

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Exactly. Oh my gosh.

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Yes. Shout that from the rooftops, 100%. Oh my gosh. It's so funny that I love your continual auditing of the books that you're reading too. I've been doing that actively right now because one thing that I shifted over to was bringing in fiction, which I never read fiction. I was like, Oh, fiction's a waste of time.

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You know, you want to keep learning blah, blah, blah. But one of the things I'm trying to bring in is just even more further down regulation. I had a a friend that came on the podcast who wrote a book around kind of living a sober lifestyle, but from like a choice perspective, not like a, you know, I have a problem, but just like wanting to, as she called it, unbottled potential is the name of her book.

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But she talks about fiction after five as kind of an ethos to kind of be able to disconnect and down regulate. But it's one of the things I've discovered is some of the fiction books I've been choosing are like so fun and page turners. So then it's that can create its own problem. So continually being like at the source and curious about is this working for me?

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All right. Maybe we need to course correct. And to your point, we're never like done or achieved some sort of mastery of sleep or something. We're going to keep learning and adjusting.  I love it. So then our next question would be what might your morning sleep routine look like right now? Yeah, so I myself have sleep apnea.

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So I use the CPAP machine. So I take off my mask. Yeah, and that's part of it. And then sometimes depending on when the kids get up, we have our morning cuddle time in bed, which is really special to me. Um, I like to do breathing, meditation and prayer, whether in bed or getting out of bed. And if it's a really good day, depending on what time I wake up, I do some journaling.

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And that really just helps. Helps dump everything out in my brain and really set the intention for the day.

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Oh, I love that. Yes, so important. Perfect. Okay. And then the third question is what might we see on your nightstand or proverbial nightstand if you're traveling or beyond?

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Yep. So I have my CPAP and my mask and my Kindle and that's it.

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I like to keep things pretty minimal. Um, I think in the, in the past I used to have like a stack of books and then the plants and then my water and it just got to be like, you know, it's not that big of a nightstand. So keeping things simple, just what do you need to wind down? And then it makes it easier when you want to clean up.

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Yeah, there's not a lot of stuff in your space.

Ugh, I keep seeing this theme in our, of many of the guests that come in and their sleep is clearly working. Often they have minimalist tendencies in their environment because they're not relying on external things to get that, have that sleep come. So, love that.

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And then the fourth question is, what to date would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game or maybe said another way, biggest aha moment in managing your own sleep?

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Oh, this is a great question. And I think it comes back to living within my values, meaning I have workaholic tendencies. And I think it just came to the point of like, why, you know, it's, you know, thinking about your future self and really having kids sort of reset that, you know, it's like you can work all day and make all this money, but to what extent, you know, it started to affect my relationships.

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It started to affect my health. I got a little bit more grouchy and yeah, it just. It didn't make sense to just work all the time, and it came to be really counterintuitive when I would be sitting in front of patients, really tired, exhausted, telling them to sleep an X amount of time, and they knew I wasn't doing it.

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Yes. So, you know, living within your values, and for me, health is really up there. So that's probably the biggest turning point where I think I moved beyond, you know, the value of service because I thought that's what I was really called to do, which really it still is, but it just came to really point where I was sacrificing a lot.

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And so now that I'm really focusing on my health, I can actually serve better because I'm in a clearer space. I'm getting more sleep. You know, my mood is a lot better and that really has changed so many things in my life.

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Oh, that's incredible and such a thoughtful way to look at that and kind of the values first ethos and then having your behaviors aligned with that.

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And as someone who has been following you for quite some time, and then even got to interact with you in real life, my experience of you is that you walk your talk and it's clear that now you've set up your life in alignment with those things. So that is so incredible, very inspiring. And so for anyone listening that is like, okay, this This person is talking in a way that is really different than some of our standard approaches potentially to sleep, um, and might want to work with you or follow you beyond.

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What are the best ways to do that?

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Thanks, Mollie. So if you're located either in Hawaii or California, those are the two states where I practice. I have a clinical sleep medicine practice called Sleep Life Med. And for those of you who aren't, or really just looking for more information about healthy living for women's sleep, uh, check out my YouTube channel, which is Sleepphoria.

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Oh, so perfect. Okay, great. And to put a bow on it, any other closing thoughts for you when you think about this whole world of sleep and particularly sleep for women, anything remaining?

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Ladies, if you're listening to this, just reach out, get the support that you need. You're not alone. There's a lot of people out there that have been on a similar journey and want to support you.

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Oh, I love that. Wow. Well, so, so great. So thankful for you taking the time and definitely will be leaving all of your kind of contact and next step information in the show notes. So please check that out and make sure to follow her and be a part of her worlds because it's just very empowering and, and really life changing things like you pointed to from a holistic perspective.

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There's been many posts that you put out that I've just been like, So wise, like just such a ad, a value ad in the crazy world of social media. So keep up that great work.

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You're so kind. Likewise, Mollie appreciate our friendship.

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Oh, well, thank you.  You've been listening to the sleep as a skill podcast, the top podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level.

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Every Monday, I send out the sleep obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over. Five years and counting. And it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to sleep as a skill.com forward slash newsletter to sign up.