202: Dr. Martin Moore-Ede Best-Selling Author, Leading Expert on Circadian Clocks & Light: The Future of Healthy Lighting: Optimizing Sleep & Health

Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world. Thinks about sleep.

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Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health, and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.

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Welcome back to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. Today we're welcoming back a guest who is one of the world's leading experts in circadian health. Dr. Martin MA pioneer in circadian biology. Dr. Martin M led the Harvard Medical School team that discovered the human circadian clock and how it synchronizes with light.

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At the Circadian Light Research Center, he identified key blue wavelengths that regulate. Our internal rhythms and pioneered evidence-based, circadian friendly lighting. In this episode, we dive into his new book, the Light Doctor, using Light to Boost Health, improve Sleep, and Live Longer, which is already an Amazon bestseller.

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We uncover how artificial light affects. Sleep, metabolism and long-term health, and most importantly, how to fix it. So we're gonna jump into this episode, but first, a few words from our sponsors. They really do keep this show going, so please check them out, check out their offerings. And again, we only partner with sponsors that we truly believe in and that I personally use myself and have my clients use as well.

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Sleep is a skill, all one word at checkout for a discount. And welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. This is an exciting day because we have a return guest, an esteemed return guest, and I'm very, very excited to dive in and really pick up where we left off in our last conversation and go in more deeply because he has a new book to share with us.

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Really one of the foremost researchers. And. Thinkers and thought leaders in many areas of circadian health, but particularly we're gonna be diving in on this concept of light and the powers of light on our biology, and then some. So Martin Marie, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

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Well, Molly, it's a delight to be with you as always.

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Oh, absolutely. Such a fan of your work and I'm so grateful I've gotten to have the opportunity to learn from you on our last podcast, and then got to meet up, at least briefly in New York when you were displaying your new innovations that you're a part of on these topics of light and how we can utilize this in our day-to-day life.

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So why don't we just dive right in on giving us the latest in your life, the book Light Options, you know, take us where you wanna take us of where you're excited right now.

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I think we're really at the, uh, getting to that tipping point in, uh, lighting. So that basically what you've gotta have for this to take off and for when I say this, I mean light that is good for you and good for your health and to get away from these LEDs, uh, that are just on every store shelf that are pumping out blue, rich light, which may be okay during the day.

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But is certainly harmful at night. Um, is really the process of people becoming aware. And, you know, I was talking to someone, um, just today about this and they said, well, you know, I'm so excited about this. I've been telling everybody about it. And, um, there's a lot of people that say, that's amazing. I need to do something about it.

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The other says, well, I haven't heard about it, so maybe this can't be that important because I haven't heard about it. Oh. That is the issue, right? Yeah. In other words, um, you'd think there was more general knowledge about it. But if you go around and talk to people about are they aware that there are blue wavelengths and light, that those blue wavelengths and light are normally healthily synchronizing your circadian clocks and keeping your body in sync with day and night when you see them during the day, but in the evening hours, they're telling the body that in fact it is still daytime.

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And they shut down the natural processes that the body does at night. The repair, restoration, uh, the suppression of cancer cells, the improvement of, of, uh, recovery mechanisms, all that I. Is shut down if you are using blue rich LED lights. And unfortunately most lights are blue rich. So the big thing is really this education getting across the bridge here to understand it.

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And I think the first thing to understand is that I. It is an optical illusion when you think you're seeing a white or yellowish light, in other words, whether it's from daylight or whether it's from electric light bulb or a fixture or even a computer screen, you think, well, that's white. Well, actually, what's coming in your eyes is not white.

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It is all the different colors of the rainbow or different composition or different colors of the rainbow, and it is an optical illusion that's put together in your brain that views it as white light. And you might say, well, that's a technical detail, but why does that matter? Well, in reality, it actually matters exactly what color wavelengths are in the light.

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So if you have light that is full of, um, sky blue wavelengths, which is the key signal that is received by the receptors in your eyes. Sent back to the clock in your brain, sent back to your pineal gland and so forth. If you see that blue, rich light during the evening, hours or night, it is very, very disruptive to our health.

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It, it affects our immune systems, it affects our, uh, risk of your appetite. We eat more. Um, uh, gain weight more, more easily, uh, have more bigger risk of diabetes, heart disease, and even cancers over the long term. But it, it just zaps your function and your wellbeing. So basically how you tell that, well, one of the issues about it is I.

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How do you actually tell someone that a light is made of something else? And I think one of the, uh, ways to do it is certainly you can use a scientific apparatus, like a, a spectrophotometer, you know, which, which will, you can point out and get a, get a measurement. But that's, that's for the geeks, that's for the scientists.

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The really neat thing is to use, um, a diffraction. Glass, uh, um, and basically this, this is a diffraction lenses here that you can put on. And if you're gonna look at a light through these, you can instantly see all the colors of the rainbow and you can look at it and tell whether or not there is blue in the light.

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And this is like a cheap $1 buy type item. Um, and is paper, paper frames. Um, so those, that's a sort of way that you can, you can. Now anybody can look at a light and figure out whether they got blue or not, or not,

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and how can people get those by the way, in case they're curious to experiment.

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We are gonna be, um, giving a free one away with every copy of our book, uh, my book, the Light Doctor.

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Um, and uh, actually we've built it so that it will be a bookmark and uh, it will be inside the book. So that's basically, that's one of the things we're gonna be doing because as I say, it's a practical tool that people can use. Yeah. Um, the other side of the picture, Molly, is that, you know, now lights are becoming available.

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Light bulbs are becoming available, light fixtures becoming available that do it all for you without you having to worry about it. In other words, provide that blue, rich light during the day. And I. Take it away at night and do it automatically. And you and I were down at, uh, the trade show in, uh, New York at education.

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Yes. Um, a little while back. And you saw these lights are now coming available. Nice architectural type lighting. You put in any office or other building or even in a home, I'm gonna be putting in my home office here. Um, and those are lights that automatically. Change the spectrum from being maximum healthy blue during the daytime hours, and then they go through a dawn dust transition where they gradually change then when night comes around, um, just to the season and they change to zero blue content, but still provide a very us usable, um, yellowish white light.

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So that, that's part of it. Now, whether the, the practical tools are now available. Um, the way to tell whether or not you've got good lighting is available and, um, we've just, you know, gotta get this out there and, um, and make people aware.

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And for the lights that you're talking about, because we get so many questions from people saying, well, what lights should I buy?

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How can they find out about those? The zero blue that you were speaking to.

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Well, for example, um, there are various companies that make things that are zero blue. Um, one is called Sora, S-O-R-A-A. Uh, and there's an Amazon store where you can buy these zero blue light bulbs. I. Um, uh, they are right now a static, um, uh, blue.

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They're evening bulbs, for example, put in your bedroom or in spaces you use in the evening. Um, by January next year, there will be fully dynamic bulbs that will change from blue, rich days to um, blue free nights. Uh, we've also. Um, got, uh, there are other companies out there, uh, that are providing light bulbs that change their colors, um, so that, uh, you know, for example, you know, there's a company called Block Blue Light that offers it.

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Um, and, um, there are a, a number of them on the web that do this sort take away the blue. Of course, the other technique is to use, I wear glasses, blue blocking glasses as a way to take out, take out the blue. But the key is get yourself free from that blue. Yeah. Yeah. Hours. That's really the, the, the big take home message.

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And the second take home message is get obviously, uh, light that is, um, exposed to daylight, particularly in the morning hours. And so, uh, and so basically if you get the best place to get Blueridge light of is, is quite frankly daylight. Um, right. And getting outside, walking, um, being out in the sun, even a cloudy day.

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Still a huge amount of, um, really healthy blue. That's also important. But also, and then the third part of it is sleeping in the dark at night. And I'll tell you, I've just been through an experience, it's sort of inadvertent, uh, experiment. Um, where I moved house just recently. Uh, our old house had really property darkened curtains.

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Um, really dark bedroom and um, and then we're moving into a modern condo, a new new build condo in downtown Wellesley. And unfortunately, the builders were delayed, so we had to move temporarily to an apartment in, uh, nearby town. Um, and. That was a big apartment building, modern apartment building, but it was the, we had a wonderful view out of the front of this building, um, onto the Charles River and so forth.

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But unfortunately there were huge, um, uh, spotlights on the building to, you know, illuminated at night. And there were, instead of dark drapes, we weren't there for long. Instead of dark drapes, there were, um, blinds letting in the light. And this experience, the difference between how well you felt when you were in a properly dark sleeping area.

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Versus the whole experiment. Inadvertently, I got myself into my wife and I, um, sleeping in this ro you know, where these, these floodlights are on and the streets, you know, and buildings across the street had illumination on. Um, so just an experience to say, yeah, you really have to darken it out. And we're, we're now sleeping so much better.

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In dark because you know, obviously in our new condo we put in, um, you know, properly, fully, uh, light proof curtains and drapes. Um, really made sure it's light tight. Obviously we're gonna, this is our home and may do it right.

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Yeah.

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And, um, what the difference in terms of our, my wife and I and I sleep, it's huge.

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Oh so huge. We have this year a sponsor with you, blockout. I dunno if you're familiar with them, but they've been amazing 'cause they'll literally outfit your entire windows and make it so fully blackout. I have clients that call it like, um. Like prison lockdown or something because you pull it down and then it's just like, like totally dark, but fairly affordable.

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So it's exciting that more companies are starting to make this easier. Like for them they'll, you can do like a zoom call and like look at the actual curtains and then the window space. 'cause sometimes it's just like confusing or. Hard to figure out like what would fit and what, just like an annoying task.

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So I'm excited that more and more companies are getting behind this. And I'm sorry you had to experience that with your last impromptu or little experiment, but so great. On the other side of the appreciation and the difference that can come with that. I know exactly what you're talking about.

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Well, it's the best studies.

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You know, when you're doing a scientist, you like to have a yes. One control condition, a test condition, and then back to the, the condition again. Right? Bracket, it's called bracketing in science. Yeah. Exactly.

And um,

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so we did a bracketed experiment and, uh, boy, uh, that made a, made a real difference, uh, to really understand, um, uh, what direct impact.

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And I'm a sleep expert. Right? Yeah. And I know about circadian rhythms. Yeah. And, uh, gosh, it just is so, I mean, you know, it's the same problem if you travel. I know you've done a lot of traveling this year. Oh. And dealing with those hot hotel, you know, drapes and hotels and, you know, and, uh, all the lights streaming in from places you just don't realize it's gonna be, uh, yeah, so, so disruptive.

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Yeah, it's

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controlling your light environment is so important.

Controlling your light environment is so important and kind of rooting us deeper in this conversation. I know you were, a part of my understanding is spearheading that scientific, uh, consensus that had come out a little bit ago where banding together with what is almost 250 circadian scientist and all calling for these warning labels on light bulbs when used at night, what was it?

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Almost 2,700 peer reviewed publications to warrant that kind of final. Take away that there could be a necessary call for warning labels on the use of our light bulbs when used at night for many deleterious effects of health. Not just sleep, but others. So obesity, diabetes, heart disease, reproductive disorders, psychiatric disorders.

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Is that all accurate too? The, just like the underscoring that it's not just like a couple of us that are. You know, concerned about this, that it's really echoing across the masses of people that are, have studied this.

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Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, this is one of the things where the scientists agree. I mean, people sometimes say, Martin, you know, you're out there, you're preaching this stuff.

Yeah.

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Is this just your view of the world? And the answer is no way. And that's one of the reasons I put together this consensus study. Yeah. Um, we actually invited everybody in the scientific community worldwide, who published multiple and more than four peer reviewed scientific articles that's, you know, properly done scientific research.

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Um, and had, and many of them published 50 or more papers. In this area. In other words, really, really been doing a lot of the research and ask them the very fundamental questions. You know, like, um, you know about is blue, the most important color is, is the 480 nanometer sky blue. I. The thing we need for synchronizing is the links between obesity, diabetes, cancer, and so forth, and got this very strong consensus across the board.

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But what was very interesting was the, they were very comfortable. I think the science is so well advanced, very comfortable to say you have to avoid the blue in the evening hours for at least three hours before bedtime. And that lights that, um, you know, the standard LED lights that are blue pump based or blue chip based.

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So they produce this spike of blue. Yeah, in the light, in the white light spectrum. Those, uh, should be carrying a warning label. Hmm. Um, may harmful if used at night. So, you know, I, I think, um, there's a movement that needs to be started, uh, maybe using the diffraction glasses where you can look at things and say, um, lenses and saying, uh, anybody can recognize whether the light has got this blue in it or not.

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I. And, um, you know, putting some warning labels up might be something that might have grassroots effort. Um, we, we need to, we need to start labeling this stuff. Um, hmm. A as a problem. And, um, so I, I think that's, that's, that's gonna be really key. And, and basically the impact on health, on wellbeing, um, on sleep.

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Um, that's so solidly demonstrated now that the gap is. Public awareness.

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Yeah.

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Um, and the problem is just people not really, um, knowing about it or not even believing it or light is light and, you know, it's so convenient, so, you know, so readily available or the flick of a light switch, I don't have to think about it.

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And it's also a power problem in government policy as we talked a little bit about because, um, the whole emphasis of government regulators these days. Has been to increase the brightness efficiency of light. In other words, um, they, they're looking at the save electricity, great. But what they're doing is favoring lights that are extremely bright and use little electricity, but unfortunately, many of them contain lots of blue and the metrics they use.

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Don't really, you know, reflect the health issues at all. So we end up then with the public policy banning incandescent light bulbs. They've gone halogen, have gone fluorescence for other reasons have been banned. We're left with these blue pump LEDs, um, as the predominant, you know, and predominant 99, more than 99% of lights, uh, are a problem.

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And so. It is just a challenge, and so that's why I'm so excited that we've now got these lights coming out, um, where they've become light bulbs, fixtures, and so forth. Uh, where people can solve the problem.

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Yeah. And I've

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got, I've got a website, um, uh, Molly, which has set up since we last talked called circadian light.org, uh, where people can go and look and, um, number one, find out where to get, uh.

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Um, how to get, uh, light fixtures for a workplace or so forth, how to get lighting for your home. Uh, they can look up about the new, new discoveries about computer screens. Mm. Um, and the development is a Kickstarter starting, uh, in September about, uh, computer screens that will take away the blue in the evening hours.

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Um, and also the chance to join a campaign for healthy lighting. And so there is a whole lot of initiatives here. We're sort of getting underway to try to get the word out and, um, and spread the word. And of course a big part of that is using the, um, you know, my book, the Light Doctor, as a way to, um. Uh, really, uh, show, uh, provide the evidence you need.

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Yes, in the simple handy place. Obviously available on Kindle as well. Um, but it's, uh, but I'm delighted it's really taken off as an Amazon bestseller again, in a lot of great responses and, um, great reviews. So very excited about that. Um, but that's ki it, educating people just to understand this is, is the challenge right now.

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Yes. And I can certainly underscore as someone that read through your book, I, I read it when you were dropping it through Substack, but now to have it all. Collected in one place is just very exciting. And the amount of research and information and time that must have gone into putting this all together in one handy place for those of us interested in land, should be for all of us.

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'cause all of us are affected by this. If you live indoors and use electric lights, like this is for you, which is pretty much everyone. But the dearth of information, the collection of all of this, and really getting the impact not just as like a nice to have or kind of top 10 things to do for your sleep.

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You know? Oh, be aware of blue light. Like, no, like really getting the why. Not only the impact on sleep, but many other aspects of health and wellbeing that I think many people just would not be aware of. And I thought it was particularly impactful too, some of the depths that you went into around cancers.

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So, and particularly breast and prostate, other things. I mean, just really, I. If someone is curious in this topic, this can provide that kind of place to go to where you can get your questions answered, but also have things illuminated, no pun intended, in such a way that really will have you looking at the world in a different way.

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So just a fantastic book and I'm so happy that it's getting such incredible reviews and accolades 'cause it absolutely deserves it. I think it's such a disruptive piece that we need to have.

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Yeah, I know. I think it's, um, it was a really, what I found is that, um, people didn't know how to get into this. And the trouble is with the science, um, uh, it, it's so hard to follow it.

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You see odd articles in the media and you don't know what is solid, what is not solid, um, what's established, what's not established. And science, if you just read it, you know, uh, like that can sound very confusing, very contradictory sometimes. Yes. In fact, the story is all together now. So this is putting it together.

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And I also do provide access, uh, to hundreds of scientific references which lead people if you really want to dig into. Um, the background of it, so, right. Yeah. It was, it was, it was a, it was, um, interesting exercise to put it together, but I think an important one, um, because people need to be armed with the facts because what you do, it's an uphill battle to persuade people, you know, why is it worth changing out the lights?

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Why is it worth asking our, um, employers or bosses to. Get healthier lighting, but I'm getting doctor's offices. I'm getting, um, work at fitness centers. Um, not as, and of course, you know, industrial workplaces and so forth, uh, office workplaces, you know, really interested. Now I'm looking at changing and producing healthy light, and if you are advocating health.

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Um, this is such a simple part of the whole solution, and yet such an important one. You really cannot be a health advocate unless you're also looking after light too. You need to deal with nutrition. You need to deal with the quality of the air you breathe, and you need to deal with the food you eat and uh, and the water you drink and everything else, but, oh, and your exercise regime.

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But you know, you need to also manage your light, and that's really critical. As a part of the mix. So I think that's where it's really taking off and people who are health conscious are the most enthused and others just need to learn more about it.

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What if you could actively calm your nervous system, reduce stress, and set yourself up for deeper, more restorative sleep, all while just lying down?

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Well, that's exactly what the Align PM MF Mat does. And by the way, I've become obsessed with this thing and my husband is always making fun of me. 'cause now all of our evenings are filled with me. Laying on this thing, but we know that stress and nervous system dysregulation are major culprits behind poor sleep.

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I'd love to hear your experience. Absolutely, and I'm so glad. I feel like it's a perfect timing. Like, I dunno if you've ever heard of the book Lights Out back in the day, it was back in 2001 by TS Wiley, and it was, the title itself was the whole idea like turn out your lights, basically like the power of that for your health at night.

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Yet, it was almost just like too early, too. People couldn't wrap their heads around it, and I'm hopeful that now we're at this time where people can start to, especially when delivered in such a way, in the way that you've delivered it, to really get the impact and the multifaceted kind of spidering impacts that can hit at just about every aspect of health and wellbeing and can largely be free or very affordable to implement.

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So having said that, now we've got the book, so we'd recommend for people to get the book, go to Amazon, read this thing because it's going to change the way you think about light and health and the surprising implications that are available there. So for you, I'm curious. There's certainly in the sleep community, I know it's a small kind of world, but there has been some kind of buzzing around different ideas and like you said, contradictory ideas around light and sleep and some things that have been kind of conversation pieces I've noticed in the past couple years have been questions of, oh, well, is light from TV screens, Kindles, laptops.

Your smartphones, et cetera, really that bad. Is it really that impactful? And I'm curious your take on that piece too, 'cause I know we've talked a lot about light bulbs, but curious your thoughts on the many screens that might be in our environment, because now we've been hearing some kind of pushback in the sleep community and I'm curious your thoughts there.

It's the total light environment. So everything is producing light that matters. Right? And so really to get the optimal effect, you want to deal with all of it. But I think there are some, you know, some people made some good points, for example, saying, um, it's not just the blue light that's coming out of a screen if you are using a screen late at night.

Um, but if you're watching horror movies,

yeah. Or the content matters, you

know, upsetting, you know, or work emails that get you highly, you know, on edge Yes. Or whatever you're doing on that screen. Yes. That's, that has a big impact. But it's not just, you know, so it's not just screens blue light per se. It it's that too.

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So that, that is absolutely true. But it's clear that when people block. Light, the blue light, whether they use it by using eyeglasses that are filters. Sure. Um, the, the blue blocking type glasses, uh, whether they do it by avoiding the screens or whatever else, um, when people do that. And at the same time get, make sure they get a healthy dose of blue, rich light, ideally daylight in the mornings.

It has huge effects on sleep. Now, the first, it's not a one night thing. Yeah,

because

sleep is of course. Um, both a circadian thing. In other words, the ti time by the clock, but it's also a home satic, which means the accumulated, um, uh, deprivation from sleep or the accumulated time awake is a big impact back there.

So basically, um, when you. Put in place and keep going for a week or more. You really do see the effects. I mean, I'm not certain that the one night effects are very strong. Sure. Um, and that's where, and a lot of these studies are one night studies, and that's, I think, led to some people saying maybe it's not important.

Yeah. But it's

very clear. I mean, there's a big study done in, um, by Harvard, uh, medical Schools, McLean Hospital, um, where they studied, um, teenage, uh, high school students. Uh, and um, they had them, uh, either. They did or didn't use, um, blue blocking glasses in the evenings and light, um, boxes in the morning.

And when they did that, they showed huge effects on this over anything for a month or more, I think it was. And they showed huge effects on sleep, but also their performance at school, their math scores went way up. Hmm. Um, significantly improved. Uh, they did studies with MRI to show brain circuit connectivity, connectivity of the brain was much more functionally, uh, optimized, um, when they, the, the lighting environment is controlled.

And we've seen these other studies too. So again, you know, that's just a, an example that it's not, you know, it's not a one night thing. Yeah,

but

it's a, it's a lifestyle. Yeah. And people see just by sticking to that lifestyle, and it's not hard to do. Just question of, you know, just looking at ways to avoid using that blue light or seeing that blue light, I.

And its effect through the eyes. And again, that's another thing that people sometimes don't fully understand. This is all about the eyes you're talking about, um, what the light coming in through the eyes.

When you say that. All about the eyes, because we do get a lot of questions around that too, where people say, well, what about the skin?

Do we have concerns there? Any call outs about the difference between the light hitting the eyes or the skin or nuance there?

Well, clearly, I mean there is this whole. Talk about people who do a lot of sunbathing and their vitamin D and, and it's largely a conversation about vitamin D, right? And that's why vitamin D is good for you and you get, you know, sun is good for you.

Well, we're talking about an effect and the trouble with, with, you know, um. Sunlight or intense sunlight on the skin over long periods of time is obviously higher, much higher risk of skin cancers and melanomas and so forth, and they occur. But you know, this effect, you don't need to be fully clo, you don't need to be unclothed, you don't need to be in a swimsuit to get this effect.

This is something that can be fully clothed. Um, it could be a rainy day and you could have a. Raincoat on, as long as you're, you know, but, but don't wear sunglasses early in the morning. You know, you want to get the full benefit

Yes. Coming in

through the eyes. So that's, that's the predominant effect.

There are effects of light on skin. There are effects of the infrared or the, um, red part that have some, some benefits, but you know, you have to have a lot of exposed skin to really see those benefits. And, um, so really this circadian effect, this, um, is, is, is really an effect through the eyes. It's an effect that is triggering these blue receptors, uh, blue detectors in, in the eyes, the melanoptic receptors.

Uh, it is, um, triggering this. Well honed response that's seen throughout the animal kingdom. Um, and, um, it's, it's, you know, it's been with us ever since the, you know, evolution of life deep in the oceans because the only light that penetrated the ocean and, um, penetrates deep into the oceans is actually blue light.

All the other colors of the rainbow spectrum are absorbed by seawater. So that's, it's blue down there, and that's what life was. Started out seeing right day was blue, uh, and the sky, blue color and night was black, and that was the signal that made the difference between day and night.

Wow.

Anyway evolved.

Yeah, we evolved

that way. And, you know, species now of course, you know, we've, we've really polluted our own internal environments. We've polluted the outside world.

Yeah.

And there's this whole issue to do with, um, you know, the, um, the illumination of our streets by blue, rich, LED lights and so forth. And there's a lot of, um, you know, uh, I think, um, public policy makers and, uh.

People who are making decisions about this sort of thing, really, uh, not taking this on board. I mean, I think there are people who are advocating that I'm delighted to see the, um, in the US the general services administration and people doing building policy are looking more and more at the benefits of security lighting.

There was a conference yesterday on this, um, which really pointed out this, this area. I think it's, people just need to become aware of it. And that's, everyone's talking about it. The science is there, it's proven. It's solid, the solutions are available. Um, and you know, it's really just getting the word out now is the, is the key.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm so grateful that you're doing that and taking this on because it's, my experience has been, once people start getting in this conversation, it almost feels intuitive. Like, like, oh yeah, that clicks, that makes a lot of sense. It's almost like something we have a knowing around, and once we start living in alignment with that, it seems to really fall into place for most people easily, but.

Many people need the urging and under understandably so. The why, the science behind it. So it's so great that you're leading the charge there. Before we switch gears to learning more the latest of how you're managing your own sleep and your own light environment, is there anything else? I know this is a huge topic, but to share before we switch gears.

I don't know. The, um, as I say, I think, uh, I think the key, the key is just getting this message out now and getting, getting people aware of it. Um, uh, it is, um, it is just, you know, it's, it's still amazing how little it is. Understood. Yeah. Um, and, um, you know, my wife has this way of, um, you know, whenever we're out in the restaurant or we're in, uh, out and about.

In the town, she stops people and say, do you realize what these LED lights do to you at night?

Ah, it should, it,

uh, incredible advocate and yeah. You know, we're living in a community here in Wellesley. Um, it's got, you know, it's, it's known for how many educated people there are here. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's got the most, the largest number of people in the US.

Who have advanced degrees, master's degrees, PhDs. Yes. MDs, whatever you It is in this community. Largest percentage of anywhere in the us.

Mm-hmm. And you

think it's a highly educated community, right. So, yes. But you know, I would say 90% of them, I've never heard of this. So it's just like, boy, boy, we, we've got, we've got, we've got ways to go here.

Yeah. Got our work cut out for us. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad that both yourself and your wife are on the case. That's amazing. Well, so to that point, I think there'll be further interesting to delve a bit more into your. Lifestyle and see what we can learn from both of you. And so our first question that we ask everyone that comes on the podcast, I know you answered this before, but I think there's always, when we've had return guests, we've always found new things that have come up.

So what is currently your nightly sleep routine looking like right now?

Well, it's, uh, first of all, put away the cell phones and so forth. I keep, I I, I, I charge 'em up in a different room. I put, put 'em away. Perfect. And so, uh, and I don't use it as my, my alarm clock or my clock in the room. Um, I also make sure the clocks in the room are in, you know, red light.

Red light LEDs. Yes.

Um,

so there's no. Blue being emitted by them. Um, winding down before bedtime is actually key. Just relaxing, you know, with, um, you know, read, whether it's reading a book or just, uh, watching something that is, uh, not too exciting on tv. Um, uh. And, um, but basically winding down. And then of course when we do go to, I go to, I tend to, we tend to go to sleep at a fairly early time at about 10 o'clock.

'cause I'm an early riser and so I, um. I get up at five o'clock in the morning, so I get my seven hour sleep and, and the diff different people have different needs for sleep. Sure. Um, I'm a seven hour sleeper thereabouts. And um, so I do that and, um, uh, but sleeping again in the dark. Um, and then I use those early morning hours, um, to make sure you know that that's best time of the day for me.

I'm one of those early morning hours. Uh, early morning locks, they're called. Yeah. Um, and, um, that's when I am, you know, most, most productive. Most creative. Um, my wife sleeps longer than I do, which gives me a couple of hours of, uh, creative time in the morning. I.

That sounds very similar to my relationship with Blake.

He's the longer sleeper, so I'm just like, you too. It's like the seven and a half hours or so, seven hours, 15 minutes type timeline for me, and so he's just much longer. So you get to have that little stretch of time of like to yourself, journaling or whatever you wanna do. Love that.

So that's, um, that's the basics.

Okay. And then of course, going out for a walk in the mornings. I will always make sure I have a walk, a beautiful country area around here with, um, you know, open o open areas. Um, a lot of green this time of year, right? Yeah. And so green is very important to color. Um, it's very soothing to the amygdala. Uh, it is, uh, it actually, we now know a lot about gr the green part of the spectrum.

'cause of course a lot of green reflected light off plants and trees and leaves. Um, and we know that it now, um, cuts pain, reduces pain, migraines and so forth. Uh, it can be treated by green, the green part of the spectrum. So that's a very, I think there's an added benefit there besides getting the blue rich light from the sky.

You're also getting a lot of, um, um, you know, enhanced green, uh, in the color spectrum. And I think that's, uh, that, that really is something that, um, you know, certainly lowers your blood pressure and, you know, and, and relax, relaxes you. Mm-hmm. Uh, very, very nice studies have been done with people walking outside and in that type of environment versus the city street.

Um, huge difference in terms of, uh, how their amygdala functions and how they. Um, how relaxed they are as a result of it. So anyway, that's, that's part of my basic routine, making sure that I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's funny that you mentioned the green. I'm looking at it right now. This one company just sent me a.

Green light. So instead of a red light, you know, a lot of the red light panels and whatever, this is the green light one supposed to be specifically, they're marketing it around headaches and migraines and that sort of thing. So you would endorse using something like that?

Yeah. Yeah. That seems to be result coming out of the University of Arizona, a couple other places.

They've be some good reports of that going on now. Mm-hmm. So good, good studies going on in that. So that seems to be a very valid response. So yeah, each of those parts of that rainbow color spectrum that.  Daylight. Um, uh, and we got, you got the beautiful thing about daylight. You get so much of intensity that you get all this, all the colors of the rainbow and all their beneficial effects, um, simultaneously.

Yeah. And you're getting them all together and, uh, in a way the artificial light just doesn't,

can't, doesn't, can't replicate. Absolutely. You made me think of this too, when you were talking about your evening routine and the red LED in the clock. I'm curious, 'cause many people will ask, they'll say, well, I got.

You know, a red LED light bulb, but like, is that okay? People ask, I thought LED was bad. Is it okay to get like a red LED? Yeah. It's not,

yeah, it's not LEDs that are bad. Yeah, that's the first thing, right? Yeah. It is the standard, the mass produced LEDs that are the problem in the evening. 'cause they are based on this blue, blue pump.

But you can have red light, um, red orange light, um, yep. Perfectly. And from LEDs. Uh, you can have, even the lights that are circadian zero blue are also LEDs. Yeah. So LEDs, the technology itself is not bad. The beauty about LEDs is that you can design the spectrum, you can design the color palette of it, of it, um, or what it emits and, um, and not just the, you know, what's on the shelves.

It's just a very copycat off the, um, low cost, cheap, bright light. Is, uh, what you need to worry about and avoid, um, the, the STEM LEDs. But yes, you can use red lights, you can use or orangey lights. So that's, that's part of it. It's, it's not an LED problem, it's a, um, it's the blue pump LED problem.

Okay. No, that's great.

And you don't have, uh, concerns on the, or any palettes with the flicker? 'cause some people will talk about the flicker rate. Any issues there?

Well, I think Flicker, you know, is an issue that really is being worked a lot out of it now. Okay. There used to be a lot of flicker in the early days.

Sure.

But, um, you know, we're, you know, it's, it's reduced down a lot and I, I don't, I don't see very good research that it's a problem these days.

Okay. Uh, with, with modern LEDs, it wasn't in the early days.

Sure. Got it. Okay. And so, and you so beautifully transition us too to the question around what your morning sleep routine looks like. So we get a sense from your, it sounds like a nice like morning walk, getting that sunlight in any call outs around how quickly you're doing that upon wakening, or do you, is it kind of blacks?

What's your take there?

There's a balance here in the, in the, um. Summer months, you know, when the sun, you know, rises and five o'clock in the morning, you don't necessarily want to get the really bright dose at that point in time because that can actually move your clock. Um, uh, further and further Eastwood as it were, yeah.

Towards Europe. Um, so I tend to do it. Um, um. An hour or so, uh, after waking a couple of hours, maybe, uh, really in the first half of the morning, but not right the first thing. Mm. 'cause as I say, too much of that light early in the morning can really, can really set you out. I mean, I, it sounds great. Yeah.

Getting out at Dawn. Um, but, um, uh, I think for many people they can just get there and, um, push their clock a little too far. Um, Eastwood.

Okay. Got it. Good call. And I think it's just so important to further underscore that. Light has this real measurable drug-like effect in a lot of ways. And so it's important for us to learn a little bit about it, of how to utilize it appropriately and for your end goals.

Beautiful. Okay. And then our third question would be, what might we see in your kind of sleep environment on your nightstand or if you're traveling proverbial nightstand, any call callouts there,

it typically is some, some magazines, some things like that. I read, um, I'm reading, um, in a, um, book on, um. Uh, homo sapiens, the history of, of the human race from the early times and the future of the human race.

There's a nice pair of books on that. Um,

fantastic.

Yeah.

Light reading. Just,

you know, I, I, I like to sort of get some ideas from other places. People look at things in new ways. Um. You know, there's some fabulous books out there on, uh, how people see color and what, you know, the language of color. Hmm. Um, I brought some of that into my book.

Um, you know, for the ancient Greeks never had a word for blue, which is amazing. Um, they just didn't have blue in their language.

Wow. And yet they had

blue skies and they had blue water in, uh, in the Mediterranean. Um, but no word for blue. And um, so basically, uh, it was sort of just interesting how culturally.

We use language to describe things. Russian language has two words for blue, a dark blue and a and and a and a light blue. And they actually are more perceptive of the tones of blue than other cultures. So interesting things like that. And so I always love ideas of in neat things, and.

Wow, that's very cool.

You said the language of color or the, or is it the secret language of color or which one?

It's about the, um, uh, I, I, I referenced it in my book. I can't You

did. Okay.

Exactly. But it, it is, um, uh, it, it is a fundamental thing about understanding, um, how color works and, um. It is it, it's, it's fascinating. Yeah.

Oh, it

must be there. I definitely see it. There's a book called The Language of Color, so maybe it's that one. That looks great. Amazing. Thank you. That's helpful. So you have those things in your environment, but it's not as if you're needing to have 9 million gadgets to fall asleep or something. 'cause sometimes we'll have people on the podcast with that.

No, I'm not, I don't have too much problem with, I think regularity is important. Um, absolutely. I. Uh, I, again, your health, the biggest factor in health is the regularity of a steep pattern. Yes. Yeah. More ire, more irregular. You are the less healthy, the shorter of your lifespan and so forth.

Absolutely. And so I think

the regular, you know, being on a regular routine may sound pretty boring, but it, it is the healthiest thing you can do.

I completely agree. So Wise and the results speak for itself that you know, you're not struggling with your sleep and it all kind of works. And then the last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game? Maybe it's the regularity, I don't know. And you know, or put another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your own sleep.

I don't know. I've been at this game for such a long time. Yeah. I'm not certain. This is a brand new thing that I've come up with.

Totally.

And so it's really the combination of those things we talked about. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And isn't that so interesting too? 'cause so much of this is really innate or natural or workable or things that you can do behaviorally, environmentally.

Free or low cost, but just have such a profound difference. So really, really wise, incredible. I know we only scratched the surface again, even though this isn't your second time on, but there's just a such a wealth of information and because we can't possibly uncover all of that, you know, all of that wisdom in a podcast episode or two.

I absolutely underscore the urging for people to get your book, go to Amazon, get the Light Doctor. And how else should people follow you? Uh, or any other callouts?

Well, basically, um, I'm continuing with the Substack. Um, yes. And that's where I can, you know, it's, it's, that's turning, you know, I originally did the book chat, book chapters that way.

Yeah. Um, bring them out one, uh, one at a time. Now what I'm using the substack is to update people on the new developments. Always new developments.

Yes.

Um, what's happening in this and also how do you look the difference between good science and bad science? Um, you know, there's recently a study came out, um, studying lifespan of people, um, who, uh.

Saw more sunlight or not, but the whole study was based on ultraviolet. So they said these people have more ultraviolet light. Well, they have everything else as well,

right?

But then, you know, the newspaper says, well, therefore tanning beds are good because ultraviolet, the more ultraviolet lights you see.

You know, the healthier it is, you know, so talk about absolute nonsense. It's a question of, you know, pointing out where the limitations of the science are and where what you need to be careful of. Um, uh, so that, um, it, it's not just the ultravit, of course, you're getting all the other benefits of sunlight.

Um, you're getting the infrared, you're getting the, uh, and then all the other colors of the spectrum. That's what's having the beneficial effect. You can't link it to just that. The ultraviolet in sunlight is what's making you healthy.

Okay. Yes. I absolutely recommend for people to certainly sign up for your substack, be a part of that.

That's just been fascinating to follow your work there, get the book, and then I believe you're also putting out information on social media as well.

Yes, I am. And one, one of the things I'm, I'm trying to now is cut this out and produce it in short educational pieces. Yeah. I think if people do learn a lot from YouTube, I mean, we need to get out there.

Um, practical advice on YouTube and other, um, channels. I do a lot of Instagram, um, uh, and um, and other things. I have some social media people who help me there. Um,

yeah,

so that basically is trying to get it out in bite-sized chunks, um, because right, it's one thing, you know, the book is the resource, but now.

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Barrier to the book is there are lots of nuggets of vital information and sometimes it's easy to take in information in, um, one minute or five minute, you know, segments as opposed to, um, you know, something that takes a a few hours of absolutely.

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Well, that's fantastic. So however you, if you're listening and however you like to absorb your information, if you wanna read through the book, get on the substack, get it into straight to your email, follow on social or all, then there are absolutely ways to do that.

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Then we'll also be including links in the show notes for things like if people are wanting to purchase the different, you know, light bulbs that you recommend and be on different websites. I think you said you have that new website as well,

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keeping light.org. That's right. Exactly. As a place to go, as a, um, you know, really say, okay, how do I find this stuff?

Yeah. Perfect. Okay, great. Well, we'll include all that in the show notes and just a huge thanks again for not only. Coming on here today, but for the work that you're doing in the field for so many years, just, you know, I'm sure it was kind of a, a small party, a small group of people back when you first started in on this, such as pioneer in the field.

And so really, really grateful to be able to observe what you've put out there to watch you making such a difference. Yeah, really, really thankful.

Thank you, Molly. It's always, always a pleasure to talk.

Awesome. Thank you. You've been listening to The Sleep Is A Skill Podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level.

Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun Facts. I've never missed A Monday for over five years and counting, and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to Sleep as a skill.com/newsletter to sign up.

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